Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Hi, im wondering if anyone could suggest which winch is better, hydraulic or pto, i drive a bj73 landcruiser. (i dont want an electric one) cheers!!

how much do you have to spend? they both have plenty of potential. if your budget is unlimited, shoot for a big hydraulic, with a dedicated pump driven off a PTO. a power steering pump does not have the duty cycle or flow rate to drive good winch performance. the up side of a PTO setup is you should be able to source one to bolt in without modification to your BJ. a hydraulic setup is going to be fairly custom.

There is no comparison the pto pump powered hydrualic is the best
I have a 12000 lb 2 speed hydraulic with a powerauto pto drive and cross hyd pump it is the next level in winching power ,duty cycle and reliability

I am currently working on remote control gear change and free spool

I can pull the full cable length in less than 1 min speeding up or slowing down revering all with a joystick

I am running 1/2 inch lines and 28 ltr res the drum of the winch never gets hot so perfect for plasma rope

no more servicing drying out or cleaning winch motors
maintenance involves hosing the mud off with the rest of your truck when you get home
it is fully sealled (it has 2500 psi of oil in the motor)


I got so sick of crappy unreliable electric winches overheating stopping after getting wet ,corroding internally ,tempramental contactors you name it it happend

I am waiting for it "but it wont work when you are stalled in a creek"

well the electrics dont work either for very long they just flatten the battery and leave you stranded in the creek with a flat battery and wet powered up electrical system
get a hand winch!!!
if you stall it in a creek disconnect the battery terminal hand winch it out, dry everything out and you will be on your way.

I will never go back

thrashlux

thrashlux,

how much did that sort of system cost you, what brand winch is it, can you post up some photos.

Sounds very interesting, pics would be great and some specs

The winch is a milemarker 12000 lb hyd
The pump is a cross
pto drive is a powerauto
lines and hoses filters etc from local hydraulic suplies in brisbane (lewis hydraulics)
I made my own custom 28ltr res out of 6mm alloy large surface area (doubles as a stone and driveshaft sheild for my fuel tank)this also has the filter in it
the control valve is a full manual valve with over pressure releaf set at 2500psi
i got it from the states
I made a mechanical linkage to next to the transmission tunnel to the joystick
the gear change and freespool will be via pneumatic controlled actuators

here are some pics








cheers

jonathan

Looks great, nice set-up.
Has anyone run a pump directly from their engine?

Thrash that set up looks sex.

A few questions - Can you winch and drive, and how does it go doing it? In comparison to when you drive assist a pto and the wheels get enough traction and you over run your winch. does it speed up when you get traction similar to how an electric winch does?

When you say you have good line speed - does that line speed maintain under load? a la i high powered electric himount?

You say your oil pump is two speed - how are the speeds changed and can it be done on the fly. would a variable vane pump do a similar job?

what sort of cost was involved in the pump?

Yes i can winch and drive but in low range only
there is no point at all because the winch is so fast and powerfull that there is no need to drive ,besides much less jerking etc straining of components letting it hang on the winch cable. besides it pulls at the same speed as if driving low range first
you can retract it so fast it is at running pace

the speed does not really slow down with load at all

the two speeds are after the winch motor via a small gear box and the levers are on the winch
It pulls about 3000 lb in Hi (enough to pull you out of mud etc)
12000 lb in low will lift the truck straight up at great speed

the winch is I would say at least twice as fast as any hi mount i have ever seen on recoil and 3 or 4 times as fast under load
most electrics have 1 or 2 6.5HP motors this has about 50 to 60 hp capactiy driven by a 400hp ENG

and it does not slow under load like a hi mount

no need to have a variable pump just select a good gear on your gearbox i use 4th my eng is only doing about 1500 rpm at 2500 psi

the pump is about 600 AUD the pto adapter 1200AUD


thrashlux

COOP wrote:I run a pump off my engine using a electric clutch with a timing belt off the crank with an auto. I believe its better because with a PTO if you throw the clutch you lose drive and winch. Mine is a warn 9000lb industrial with a different pump and set at 2750psi and it pulls at 152 feet per minute under load.

Whats the electric clutch off?, is it an aircon pump clutch?

thrashlux wrote:
the winch is I would say at least twice as fast as any hi mount i have ever seen on recoil and 3 or 4 times as fast under load
most electrics have 1 or 2 6.5HP motors this has about 50 to 60 hp capactiy driven by a 400hp ENG

I spoke to powauto and they have told me that the PTO outlet boxes for cruisers and Pootrols are only good for 9HP.
I did the calculations based on this and worked out that my PTO winch could theoretically winch at any speed on any load if

A)the PTO out box could handle the required HP (RPM x Torque/load) and
B) the bronze worm gears are the next weak point and could be beefed up somewhat.

So are you using a standard output box? if so then i need to go back to the drawing board and assume that it's capable of putting out way more than 9HP.

So the major costs in converting my car to your set up would be

PTO adaptor (assuming that it just bolts on to my existing PTO out box) - 1200
Pump - 600
winch - god knows
Hoses - few hundred
oil tank - couple hundred

is that right?

rockcrawler31 wrote:

thrashlux wrote:
the winch is I would say at least twice as fast as any hi mount i have ever seen on recoil and 3 or 4 times as fast under load
most electrics have 1 or 2 6.5HP motors this has about 50 to 60 hp capactiy driven by a 400hp ENG

I spoke to powauto and they have told me that the PTO outlet boxes for cruisers and Pootrols are only good for 9HP.
I did the calculations based on this and worked out that my PTO winch could theoretically winch at any speed on any load if

A)the PTO out box could handle the required HP (RPM x Torque/load) and
B) the bronze worm gears are the next weak point and could be beefed up somewhat.

So are you using a standard output box? if so then i need to go back to the drawing board and assume that it's capable of putting out way more than 9HP.

So the major costs in converting my car to your set up would be

PTO adaptor (assuming that it just bolts on to my existing PTO out box) - 1200
Pump - 600
winch - god knows
Hoses - few hundred
oil tank - couple hundred

is that right?

all is pretty right the hoses were about $600

you can spend between 1400 and 2400 on the winch

the oil tank would depend on you situation ie how much you can do your self, how fussy you are and your available mounting position /shape

I think you will find that the power auto power figure is calculated on first gear at just over idle hence such a low figure the pto shaft an gears will only break at a particular torque figure so if you spin it faster the torque on the shaft remains a small figure but the power increases.
power is the rate at which torque (force) is applied

so if you were in first gear the out put shaft of the pto may for example maybe doing 300 rpm
when you put it in 4th direct drive the out put is doing 1500rpm hence 5 times the power (50 hp) but the torque on the pto shaft is the same.

does this sound right to you could explain what is going on

ps. there are no bronze worm gears in mine just straight cut steel ones


thrashlux

COOP wrote:I run a pump off my engine using a electric clutch with a timing belt off the crank with an auto. I believe its better because with a PTO if you throw the clutch you lose drive and winch. Mine is a warn 9000lb industrial with a different pump and set at 2750psi and it pulls at 152 feet per minute under load.

9000lb @ 152fpm.... mmmmmm i think not! @2750psi??? riiiiight

COOP wrote: Mine is a warn 9000lb industrial with a different pump and set at 2750psi and it pulls at 152 feet per minute under load.

i calc it out to equal ~30kw or 41.3hp direct crank draw.... WOW

1MadEngineer wrote:

COOP wrote: Mine is a warn 9000lb industrial with a different pump and set at 2750psi and it pulls at 152 feet per minute under load.

i calc it out to equal ~30kw or 41.3hp direct crank draw.... WOW

All the figures sound quite close to that of my winch mine does about 45m per min so that is about 140 ft per min so it is believible


but that timing belt must be coping a flogging have you had any fail yet?
that was my original plan to drive off the eng but i concluded pto a far more reliable option not subject to rocks mud water etc

thrashlux

COOP wrote: By the way Mr engineering Guru maybe you better get another calculator or learn how to use it!

sorry your right, i re-read your post and you did say 'load' not 'full load' as i did (loss free) calcs on 9000lb at 152fpm (which still equal what i worked out). Sorry i did assume you might be another one of these 'W####kers" that always say "my 6hp highmount can pull 8000lb at 50m/min" which is obviously utter crap! So what clutch did they get you? NEXEN / warner / ...? they were one of the only ones we found to take >30hp. We use a ~30hp 'mower' clutch on one of the comp trucks with good success, although we have an adjustable transformer which can give us 18v for extra grip in wet situations. BTW what motors are you running? any part#'s or specs.

COOP wrote:The motor I grafted on to the Warn 9000lb industrial hydralic was a 32cc motor which at 50ltr gave me 1400rpm motor speed. The pump was a chelsea CP-16-115 which was pump and Warner clutch assembly but I had to machine of the twin V belt grooves and make a gilmore cog for it and the crank which BTW run at 1:1. The pump is a 36cc pump. I run it at a max. of 3500rpm which gives me around 115ltr of oil per minute so at the end of the day it gives me three times the speed of a standard winch. I have it set at about 8500lb/2750psi cause I'd rather blow off a relief valve than a rope!

Awesome info, thanks a lot. What a great thread!!

Coop, how do you ensure you don't exceed 3500rpm when the winch is engaged? I am told if a hydraulic pump is over revved it will be damaged very quickly. Are you using a rev limiter or just doing it by feel?

thanks
Leeham

COOP wrote:The motor I grafted on to the Warn 9000lb industrial hydralic was a 32cc motor which at 50ltr gave me 1400rpm motor speed. The pump was a chelsea CP-16-115 which was pump and Warner clutch assembly but I had to machine of the twin V belt grooves and make a gilmore cog for it and the crank which BTW run at 1:1. The pump is a 36cc pump. I run it at a max. of 3500rpm which gives me around 115ltr of oil per minute so at the end of the day it gives me three times the speed of a standard winch. I have it set at about 8500lb/2750psi cause I'd rather blow off a relief valve than a rope!

aha, i thought you had gotten rid of the 80cc T series eaton motor that comes std I am running a 32cc rexroth bent axis piston, with a 54cc radial piston pump, which allows for BIG rpm AND 350+bar.

BTW how much did they charge for the warner clutch?? I have used them in large industrial applications, but not in the smaller stuff. We are running a much better clutch setup now, heaps cheaper and capable of handling WAY more grunt

cheers

Coop,

I am also very interested in your electric clutch setup. Can you post some pics and give model numbers etc.?

I have just bought one of these. Runva NHW100000 lbs

It has a 50cc/rev motor and 33:1 reduction planetary gear train.

I have a Vickers 12.5cc/rev vane pump that i want to drive off the crank with an electric clutch, and was looking at using an a/c clutch or lawn mower cutting deck electric clutch.

Very intersted in your model, otherwise i was trying to source an elctric clutch like this from a John Deere Mower .








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**EDIT**
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I found Coop's pump. It's actually a Parker/Gresen CP-16 model clutch pump available from www.lifcohydraulics.com or Penrith NSW Aus here http://www.sigrail.com/Mobile%20Hydraulics.pdf

Data sheet downloadable here:
http://www.lifcohydraulics.com/catalog/ ... 0Pumps.pdf














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I have been doing a bit of research and think i will just buy a complete off the shelf "Clutch Pump" as they are known in the states. These can be bought in big flow and power models and are relatively cheap considering powauto want $600 just for the electric clutch.

Muncie make a few models ranging from 3 - 11 GPM @ 1000 rpm and they can run up to 3500 - 4000 rpm max and come complete with the clutch unit.

The biggest Muncie unit can do over 125Litres/min














These can be bought from leetransport in the US for $435.00

http://leetransport.net/category.asp?cat=80

PDF Mucie Manual can be downloaded from here :

http://www.munciepower.com/Products/Flu ... mps/PF.htm

(Page11 from here)
http://www.munciepower.com/images/PS02.Hydraulics.pdf

and this Good Brochure:
http://www.munciepower.com/images/Produ ... P89-14.pdf

alternatively northerntool have these clutch pumps (from Forceamerica apparently) for $469.00 in three models.

#1080
GPM @ RPM:______Litres/min @ RPM
4.6 @ 1200_______17.41 @ 1200
7.6 @ 2000_______28.77 @ 2000
11.4 @ 3000______43.15 @ 3000 rpm

or Bigger one
#1081
GPM @ RPM:_______Litres/min @ RPM
8.6 @ 1200________32.55 @ 1200
14.5 @ 2000_______54.89 @ 2000
21.6 @ 3000_______81.76 @ 3000

or Largest one

#1082
GPM @ RPM:_______Litres/min @ RPM
11.6 @ 1200________43.91 @ 1200
19.4 @ 2000_______73.43 @ 2000
29.1 @ 3000_______110.16 @ 3000



see link below

http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/ ... _200329774





Or Below is a Vickers Power Steering Pump VTM426075 series available with electric clutch [7.5 GPM (28.38 LPM) @ 1500rpm biggest version]





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Wow that just simplifies a hydro install by allot, nice find and a wee bit more local for me too... Cheers

I have a hydraulic tipper on my cruiser ,it's run by an electric driven hydro pump,just wondering if I could run a remote off that to the winch?

You could run a winch off of the pump


BUT 1 of the basic laws of phisics is that power cannot be created or destroyed

so if your tipper has a 5 or 6HP motor on it then you may end up with 3 or 4 HP at the the winch

the idea of using hydrualic's is to some how harness all that power from your engine and transmit it to your winch in a usable controlable fashion
with out generating too much heat

to transmit say 25kw of power via electrical means you would need
a 2000 amp alternator so as you can see elec winches are doomed for sustained use at high loads

also elec motors are a lot heavier and larger for their power output than hydrualic

short and the long of it is you may as well hook up a hydualic winch to the power steer pump insted of the tipper pump
the only thing it could be good for is emergency back up but it would be very slow

jonathan

What happened to Coop's messages in this thread.
All his replies have gone missing in action!

I don't know, the all just disapeared?

Any one thought about using a variable piston pump with the steering circut or another smaller gear or vane pump as the pilot??? This would make the winch speed variable!!!