Outer Limits 4x4 Board

I just got a th400 case for the buggy to mock up with.

I have never really liked the idea of a rebuilt 1960's box but It still seemed like a good choice till I saw the 6l80e - The same 80 torque # of the th400 and by all reports capable of 5-600hp. It bolts up correctly to the ls2 with a 360 deg bellhousing - something that put me off about the th400.
It looks (from photo's only) like the same extension pattern as a 4l80e so a marks kit might work to bolt up the transfer, or in my case an atlas.

I rang holden and they want $5500 which is better money better spent IMHO than $3700 for a tickled up grease lightening box.

So as I have 6mths at least till I actually need the box I am sure I will get one for $2-2.5k surplus. How do those with this box find them?

If anyone knows about a VE with one wrecking let me know please!

Now for some info, cheers bru:

http://www.nextcar.com.au/n.holden.VE.trans.06jul.html

28th July, 2006



General Motors’ electronically controlled six-speed automatic transmission will be offered in all V8 variants of the all-new VE Commodore range.

The 6L80E transmission will be available for the first time in a car manufactured outside North America and is the first six-speed transmission offered on a Holden.

The new transmission headlines a range of three automatics and two manuals in which every version has been replaced, upgraded or substantially recalibrated for the VE models.

Holden’s six-speed manual V8 transmission has undergone significant revisions to sharpen shift quality and smoothness.

GM Holden Engineering Group Manager - Engines and Transmissions, Simon Cassin, said Holden’s 2006 transmission lineup was responding directly to customer demand on performance, response and feel.

“We think we’ve got the VE powertrain mix absolutely right. Our research continues to show that the majority of our buyers still place performance above everything else,” Mr Cassin said.

“We have lifted all power and torque outputs, further improved and refined our transmissions and introduced the six speed automatic – a transmission that is the domain of GM’s ultra-premium products."

“We have boosted launch feel, reduced engine noise and made gear shifting easier and sharper."

“It’s all well and good to make strong improvements to your engines, but they have to be mated to refined, high-performance transmissions to get the mix absolutely right.”


Holden will offer the 6L80E in all V8 variants of Holden’s Berlina, SS, SS V, Calais and Calais V models, also providing gearshift-based Active Select flexibility for the driver.

Until now, the six-speed auto had been available only in high-performance Cadillacs and GM’s iconic Chevrolet Corvette. It will also be included on selected high level 2007 model year SUVs in North America.

The 6L80E will be offered alongside a substantially upgraded version of the proven Tremec T56 six-speed manual matched to the all-alloy 6.0L V8 powertrain.

Holden’s 3.6L V6 Alloytec engines will be mated to GM’s five-speed and four-speed automatic transmissions or six-speed manual transmission from Aisin, depending on model.

All have received significant improvements and extensive calibration work by GM powertrain engineers to balance each transmission’s performance with buyer expectations.

Mr Cassin said the new 6L80E improved performance while providing a seamless shift feel to the customer.

He said the transmission assisted lower engine revs at highway speeds, reducing engine wear and noise and increasing economy. A wide gear ratio spread of 6:1 offered an excellent balance between performance and fuel conservation needs.

“We have undertaken a significant upgrade to our trusted T56 six-speed manual transmission for the V8s, introducing closer ratios and continuing to improve the feel between gates,” he said.

“We now have triple-synchronised capacity for first and second gears and double-synchronised for other gears, making shifts faster and smoother."

“We have matched this with a clutch engagement which has less peak effort, engages earlier and travels less. It’s a compelling combination with the six-litre V8, which also has a home in the Chevrolet Corvette.”

Cassin said GM’s five-speed and four-speed automatics and Aisin six-speed manual were appropriate applications for the various V6 models in the VE range.

“As with the V8s, we spent a lot of time determining which transmissions best suited the need of the general customer,” he said.

“We have made some important changes, such as the recent introduction of a direct input speed sensor on the four-speed automatic which continues to improve shift feel and smoothness."

<>“The five-speed transmission has had a fantastic response since its introduction in 2004 and required only minor changes. It is a well-balanced combination with the High Output Alloytec V6.”


VE COMMODORE TRANSMISSIONS – HIGHLIGHTS

(NEW) 6L80E six-speed automatic. Available on Berlina, SS, SS V, Calais and Calais V combined with 270kW 6.0L V8. Manufactured by GM in Ypsilanti, Michigan, United States.

First application on a vehicle manufactured outside North America and first six-speed automatic for Holden locally produced vehicles
Active Select feature – tap control on gear shifter replacing steering wheel paddles
Clutch-to-clutch shifting
Wide 6:1 gear ratio spread; steep 4.03:1 first gear for improved launch and acceleration
Two overdrive gears for reduced revs at highway speed – 0.85:1 in fifth and 0.67:1 in sixth
Rigid aluminium case for low noise transfer to the vehicle and high torque capacity
Performance mode detects sporty driving and holds gears rather than allowing upshifts
32-bit electro-hydraulic control module
T56 – six-speed manual. Standard on SS and SS V combined with 270kW 6.0L V8. Manufactured by Tremec in Queretaro, Mexico.

Shorter gear ratios – three to eight per cent overall
Improved launch feel, better acceleration and overtaking performance
Increased synchroniser capacity in all gears reduces shift effort and allows faster shifts
1, 2 triple synchronised compared with VZ double synchronised
3, 4, 5, 6 double synchronised versus VZ single synchronised
All-new fully isolated remote shifter reduces noise and allows less vibration
Eight per cent shorter shift travel
Clutch pedal travel reduced 25mm to 140mm, lightening clutch effort
5L40E five-speed automatic. Available on SV6, Calais and Calais V combined with 195kW 3.6L V6. Manufactured by GM in Strasbourg, France.

Active Select feature – tap control on gear shifter replacing steering wheel paddles
Performance mode detects sporty driving and holds gears rather than allowing upshifts
Powertrain braking recognises long downgrades and selects a lower gear
AY6 – six-speed manual. Standard on SV6 combined with 195kW 3.6L V6. Manufactured by Aisin in Nagoya, Japan.

New isolated shift assembly reduces transmission noise in the cabin and improves comfort
Thirteen per cent reduction in gear lever length
Less clutch pedal travel, lower engagement and lower peak effort
An over-centre assist spring reduces clutch effort and provides a sportier feel.
4L60E four-speed automatic. Available on Omega and Berlina combined with 180kW 3.6L V6. Manufactured by GM in Toledo, Ohio, United States.

Extensive recalibration
Direct input speed sensor improving shift feel and smoothness
Improved launch feel
Rear differentials

All-new ZF differential with aluminium casing
8.3-inch crown wheel standard, up from 8.0-inch (V8) and 7.5-inch (V6)
Upgrade limited slip differential with multi-plate clutch system – standard on SS and SS V, optional on other models with sports suspension
Double-isolated rear differential reduces axle whine
Power and torque figures as per ECE regulations

good pics

http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgu ... %26hl%3Den

man the 400 may be an ancient box compared to the 6l8e but its near bulletproof and a proven performer. There is a reason why its still used in alot of high HP street cars.

if you use the new box, be prepared to shell out the dollars when it breaks or plays up.


Jes

I'd want to know that someone has worked out shift control on this gearbox before you took the plunge. My guess would be 5th and 6th are solenoid shifted (if the whole box isn't) so it will take some electronic control to shift it.

I'd have to say in your application bru, 1st and 6th would be almost useless, leaving you with a 4L80E that's a lot more expensive to play with and shift.

I'm surprised you haven't mentioned the 4L80E - I would have thought that would be the perfect solution

Just my 2C.

Steve.

Shift control shouldn't be a problem. You can use the pcm's used in commodores and have it flashed appropriately to shift the way you want. Basically you would use a matching engine and transmission control computer.

edit* I wouldnt completely write off the 6l80e. I dont think the extra ratios would be a waste IMO. There not there to give an extra low gear and an extra high gear but more spread the 4 gears over 6 to improve economy, acceleration and smoothness. I know if your planning on running some silly amounts of horsepower you may have issues (from what i can tell this is when people opt to got the 4l80e and get it built) but otherwise there's plenty of commodores about running lots of power through them.

Matter of fact if its the same bolt pattern as the 4l8e I rekon it would be a great idea.

If I had the space in my disco bay Id look at running the 4.0L turbo six ford with zf six speed (mint transmission). But alas they're too long and I'm not sure how good people are with the Ford computers yet.

but that's the problem - I'm not sure what bru wants to use for management, but I can see some potential problems with shift behaviour unless it's all matching. otherwise I can see some patches on patches to get engine performance and auto shift performance happily living together.

Additionally, GM trucks change shift parameters in low range. running a 6L80E commodore based shift protocol once you are in low range is likely to make for awkward drivability - it will see no load and massive road speed and shift right on through to 6th.

does anyone who runs one of these in a commodore have anything to add about how they go holding gears, speed of shifts (especially down from say 3rd to 2nd)?

Many ecu controlled autos seem too slow between the gears when manually shifted to be useful in a competition application, which is why it's hard to go past a manualised T400, as an example but I agree, the T400 is limiting with both a tallish 1st and no OD - I have a similar problem crunching numbers with my planned 4BT Cummins/T400 into mu Gwagen - getting it to cruise at a sensible speed is a hassle with a 3200rpm govenor- a T700 would be a better bet for me, but I still like the idea of the "native" behind that motor T400.

Steve.

Gwagensteve wrote:but that's the problem - I'm not sure what bru wants to use for management, but I can see some potential problems with shift behaviour unless it's all matching. otherwise I can see some patches on patches to get engine performance and auto shift performance happily living together.

Additionally, GM trucks change shift parameters in low range. running a 6L80E commodore based shift protocol once you are in low range is likely to make for awkward drivability - it will see no load and massive road speed and shift right on through to 6th.

does anyone who runs one of these in a commodore have anything to add about how they go holding gears, speed of shifts (especially down from say 3rd to 2nd)?

Many ecu controlled autos seem too slow between the gears when manually shifted to be useful in a competition application, which is why it's hard to go past a manualised T400, as an example but I agree, the T400 is limiting with both a tallish 1st and no OD - I have a similar problem crunching numbers with my planned 4BT Cummins/T400 into mu Gwagen - getting it to cruise at a sensible speed is a hassle with a 3200rpm govenor- a T700 would be a better bet for me, but I still like the idea of the "native" behind that motor T400.

Steve.

Sorry mate I was editing my post as you posted. As far as I'm aware you can get all the shift points altered and if your chasing fast shifts I think you can get line pressures increased too. I agree it would never quite be a full race gearbox but my opinion of the car was that it wasn't a fully fledged race car so the 6 speed would allow greater drivability. In saying that if racing was more of an issue I would lean towards the 4l80e like you mentioned in you earlier post. Only problem is that there are not plentiful surplus stocks or written of commodores you can pinch em out of.

Also if you haven't already Bru, check out ls1.com.au. There's a couple of forum sponsors there who specialise in auto transmissions and making them last in hp applications. I'm sure they'd be able to let you know if the 6l80e is suitable and if it is whether or not you;ll have to sell your first born to make it suitable.

Gwagensteve wrote:but that's the problem - I'm not sure what bru wants to use for management, but I can see some potential problems with shift behaviour unless it's all matching. otherwise I can see some patches on patches to get engine performance and auto shift performance happily living together.

Additionally, GM trucks change shift parameters in low range. running a 6L80E commodore based shift protocol once you are in low range is likely to make for awkward drivability - it will see no load and massive road speed and shift right on through to 6th.

does anyone who runs one of these in a commodore have anything to add about how they go holding gears, speed of shifts (especially down from say 3rd to 2nd)?

Many ecu controlled autos seem too slow between the gears when manually shifted to be useful in a competition application, which is why it's hard to go past a manualised T400, as an example but I agree, the T400 is limiting with both a tallish 1st and no OD - I have a similar problem crunching numbers with my planned 4BT Cummins/T400 into mu Gwagen - getting it to cruise at a sensible speed is a hassle with a 3200rpm govenor- a T700 would be a better bet for me, but I still like the idea of the "native" behind that motor T400.

Steve.

Auto is very tuneable, so not an issue, run a 6 speed compatible PCM and its done

are you doing a lot of road k's?? cus you certainly don't need it for offroad racing! There aer plenty of HUGE$$ US teams that still only use a T400. Doesn't seem to matter whether they are running pro2/lite or TT or pro4 they generally all run T400's. And its not rocket science to see why. These guys are geared to run at 150-200kph RELIABLY and to get something as aerodynamic as a brick to do those speeds it take REAL HP. Most TT run 500-750HP (real HP not BS figures) .

So in the real world to get this thing to run around the 200kph mark you probably want to be spinning it to ~5000rpm, so on 37" rubber and in 6th gear (0.67) you would need 7:1 diff gears to make use of it. BUT as you are sticking with toyota 80 series gear 4.88 is as high as it gets. SO 3500rpm would take you to 200k if you had the torque.... i don't think so.

Stick to the T400 and enjoy the strength and relaibility IMO..

Which gets me back to 1st and 6th being pretty useless in the 6L80E. That uber tall 6th is going to be there to try and get economy on cruise to improve US CAFE fuel economy - the same reason the T56 has a 0.5:1 super overdrive.

Steve.

1MadEngineer wrote:are you doing a lot of road k's?? cus you certainly don't need it for offroad racing! There aer plenty of HUGE$$ US teams that still only use a T400. Doesn't seem to matter whether they are running pro2/lite or TT or pro4 they generally all run T400's. And its not rocket science to see why. These guys are geared to run at 150-200kph RELIABLY and to get something as aerodynamic as a brick to do those speeds it take REAL HP. Most TT run 500-750HP (real HP not BS figures) .

So in the real world to get this thing to run around the 200kph mark you probably want to be spinning it to ~5000rpm, so on 37" rubber and in 6th gear (0.67) you would need 7:1 diff gears to make use of it. BUT as you are sticking with toyota 80 series gear 4.88 is as high as it gets. SO 3500rpm would take you to 200k if you had the torque.... i don't think so.

Stick to the T400 and enjoy the strength and relaibility IMO..

If bru goes with D60 though, like he mension could happen in the future, the 6l80e would be good. I'm think the ratio's are available for the D60.

very good comments. Thanks all.

The 6l80e is old enough to have been used in a tt if it was going to be I guess.

I have seen plenty of in cab footage and some guys change gears (th400) like every 15-30 seconds in some sections which is strange unless they are between gears? Got me thinking a better gear spread would fix that.

But its true the 6th will be a waste, and I can't remember ever using 1st double low on my old truck apart from winching, so 1st would be out too as a 3.8 atlas is close to the 4.2? duals I was running.

As for the 4l80e its seems to me to be 1k dearer and heavier for overdrive only essentially as the lower gears can be tuned by the diff ratio.

The main problem i feel is that if i do go 4l80e its electronic (with a 2k comp) maybe ls2 comp would run it? for little gain. It is also longer. The trade off to me at this stage seems too great. And easier to justify for a 6l80e

If I go th400 I will go fully manualized with a modified shifter (similar to the one on pirate4x4 and It will be 100% water safe.

The other thing too, is I was talking to a few guys building buggies with 4l65e's they are like $1700 with a torque converter. more food for thought.

The build will be starting monday as my steel was mishipped to SA, so hope it is here monday .


thanks all, your advice is much appreciated as i have never given auto's the time of day until this build.

Bru

Do you plan on running the l98 with its standard PCM and drive by wire, Or are you going to change the reluctor wheels so you can run the early LS1 PCM and cable throttle body.

If you run the 6l80e, you will need the drive by wire PCM, because it then talks to the transmission TCM via CAN bus. The early PCM will not do this.

on the other hand, with the early LS1 PCM you can use either 4l60, 4l65 or 4l80 trans and control it via the engine PCM. (only one computer)

Shifting in low range is no issue. as long as the speed sensor is on the trans output shaft, not the t-case output shaft. If it did become an issue you can have 2 different Gear shift maps programed. (one 'power' and one 'economy' ) you can make these boxes shift as hard and quick as you want with the right tune.

You will also loose alot of HP through a T400, where as the later 4l65e would be more effiecent.

My opinion would be a 4l65e with upgraded clutch packs and torque converter.

The 6l80e will require a TCM 42 for shift control, I don't know if this would run stand alone. It would require some fancy work to make that happen. All shifts are solenoid based as are they in a 4l80e, it may be possible their is a manualised valve body available already. There are aftermarket stand alone shift trans ecu's for the 4l80e and 4l60e, if not yet available it would certainly be only a matter of time untill there is one for the 6l80e.
killalux is correct in his comments about the CAN network for these. I run an LS1 with 4l80e on my turbo Gen III. I would personally avoid fly by wire on a comp truck, I have tuned a few and they have experienced throttle shutdown in some situations.
I have mine set up with multiple shift pattern via the power switch and a full manual switch that I never use, it works really well but the tall 1st gear in the 4l80e means you need a lot of torque off the line to get up and boogy fast.

Joel

the 4l65e is a rip off of the 4l60e except they have bearings on the reaction shell in the trans and one more friction in the 3/4 clutch even though you can beef this trans up the 400 would be stronger.





6l80e gear ratios
1st Gear Ratio
4.027

2nd Gear Ratio
2.364

3rd Gear Ratio
1.532

4th Gear Ratio
1.152

5th Gear Ratio
0.852

6th Gear Ratio
0.667

Reverse
3.064


Gm Ratios
GM Automatic Transmission Gear Ratios

Name 1st
2nd
3rd
Overdrive

Powerglide
1.76
1.00

TH-350
2.52
1.52
1.00

TH-400
2.48
1.48
1.00

700-R4
3.06
1.63
1.00
0.70


4L60
3.06
1.63
1.00
0.70

4L80
2.48
1.48
1.00
0.75

Bit of info on the 4l65e vs 4l60e:

http://www.fastfieros.com/tech/4l60_4l65e.htm (also has 4l80e if you read the whole thing)

In a nutshell, the L65 differs from the 4L60-E in these ways:
* Five-pinion gears for input and reaction gearsets (versus four-pinion gears in the L60)
* Heat-treated stator shaft splines
* Induction hardened turbine shaft
* Heavier-duty low/reverse roller clutch
* Additional friction plate added to 3-4 clutch (seven plates versus six in L60)
* Shot-peened output shaft
* Revised valve body calibration.

Is this going to be a dedicated race car or is this the KOH type road registered car? Your going to have to compromise one way or the other (for road or race use). If dedicated race car why bother going to the effort of registering the car at all?? And are you leaving your engine stock /pcm tune only or you going to add serious power later via a supercharger or stroker??

You should be looking at all these sorts of things when choosing the box IMO.

well, getting a maf tune and maybe a cam (after its run in)

no s/c etc as cams is 6lt n/a

Dedicated off road racer / koh that is rego'd no compromise as will mount all rego gear on removable bumpers. And a quiet exhause it not that bad these days. To practice you need rego, run in needs rego etc.

cheers bru

Im running a manual shift 4L80 in my 80UTE behind 454 BB and i dont know why i did't do it years ago as it transformed all aspects of tough offroading. Twenty years ago i had a V8 Hilux with a Turbo 400 trans and it was crape WHY!!!! suspension was crap, brakes were crap so going slow was difficult and engine braking was no good for the slow speeds the 4X4's traveled at. Now with great suspension and brakes i find myself on the go pedal driving down the steepest hill to travel at a controlable speed when i low range. In High range on the highway it's a different game 1st gear is very high (~2.5:1) with 4.375 diffs and 37' tyres getting the ute off the line fast is not as good as it was with the manual ( does 90 km/h @ 6000 rpm in first ) overdrive is good thou 2200 rpm @ 100 km/h. The 4L60 has better ratios but the strenght in a high hp 4x4 ?????? i have seen/heard them break the output shafts !!!. Not wanting to regear to lower diffs ( pinion gets too small and breaks) as it is ace in low range. To get more torque to get it moving faster off the line better i picked up a new engine Chev BB ZZ502/502 crate engine as this should give me the better pulling power from idle that i want and will be bulletproof high hp engine.

Wally