Outer Limits 4x4 Board

any one done a full ruf on a spoa swb
did it work any good???
drawbacks??
approx how much will it move my diff forward on a full ruf?
can I use a set of shagged now flat once 2"lifted rancho springs??
im not looking for lift

i dont think 2inch lifted spring will suit.

i did a 'half ruf' on my spoa. havent been offroad with it yet as im sorting out other problems with the car and need to sort out my front shaft angles

Diff will come forward 40mm

As for drawbacks - well, it's a lot of work, and you'll be on the roundabout of trying to find springs that work, but you do have the option of building bumpstops and shockmounts in exactly the right places and to work with your setup.

Flogged 2" lift rears might work if they have enough rate. Remember stock fronts are about 220lb/in and stock rears are 150lb/in - using a rear int he front immedately lowers the rate and that's not generally good in a SPOA application- you need a stiffer spring to locate the axle than in a SPUA application.

Steve.

You will need to make a hybrid packs, there is not an off the self item that will work well for you.
A couple of mains (eyes removed from an old set) with about 4 to 5 leaves. You will want them to be very flat.
You will need to ensure that theleaves are very will supported. The BIG issue is stability under heavy braking forces, the leaves can and will bend leading to extraordinarly vauge handling (not ideal during an emergancy stop in a tall SWB vehicle that has marginal handling at the best of times)

she,s really an offroad vehicle
so a bit loose isn't too big an issue
off road handling is the big issue.
I was thinking about a set of silvertone extreames in 35's
so I need firewall clearance and figured the extra wheel base would be nice hence the ruf idea
ive already moved the diff 20 mm forward but thats not going to be enough I figure I need about 30 mm more or a fire wall trim.
she has a 60mm chassis ext I did when I remade the front bar.
I was thinking about pinching a long leaf or two from the front pack thats going,I am only running the three longest ones in there at the moment.
and a bumpstop ext is already underway as I'll need it to stop a tyre jamming in the guards.
any other ideas/suggestions would be tops
cheers andrew

you will have to cut the headlight holders

ajsr wrote:she,s really an offroad vehicle
so a bit loose isn't too big an issue
off road handling is the big issue.
I was thinking about a set of silvertone extreames in 35's
so I need firewall clearance and figured the extra wheel base would be nice hence the ruf idea
ive already moved the diff 20 mm forward but thats not going to be enough I figure I need about 30 mm more or a fire wall trim.
she has a 60mm chassis ext I did when I remade the front bar.
I was thinking about pinching a long leaf or two from the front pack thats going,I am only running the three longest ones in there at the moment.
and a bumpstop ext is already underway as I'll need it to stop a tyre jamming in the guards.
any other ideas/suggestions would be tops
cheers andrew

The other issue with a "light" spring pack that will flex like crazy is going to compromise traction ultimately as it will "hop" quite easily. (a tyre thats not on the ground has nooo grip)

I would be running at least two full length leaves ( partially due to the support I feel they need because of the huge negative arch a spoa can produce) one thats suite long and couple of shorter ones.. say almost a full front pack with the eyes chopped off the main leaf.
Remember that a SPOA puts alot of additional leverage into the spring so a higher rate is not nessicarily a bad thing. It will still droop quite well. (Pls for the love of all that is good .. do not be tempted to install whacky shackles)

ajsr wrote:she,s really an offroad vehicle
so a bit loose isn't too big an issue
off road handling is the big issue.

Not having a go at all, but this is a common misconception.

A car that is loose and handles poorly on road will also be loose and handle poorly offroad- all the same forces are at work. A car that does something horrible on road will also do the same horrible thing offroad.
About the only area that can be different is roll stiffness - Offroad, lower roll stiffness is desirable than you'd normally permit onroad, which is why disconnecting a front swaybar can be beneficial offroad.

Just because a car flexes well on an obstacle doesn't mean it handles well. To have a car that handles well offroad lots of attention has to be paid to axle location, shock valving, and mostly centre of gravity, and if those things are right offroad, the car should also track straight and drive well on road.

To an extent, this will depend on the type of driving you do - very low speed crawling will allow a much looser car to work than if you have to hit stuff with speed, but generally, in Victoria, we'll all have to use some momentum sooner or later to hit a greasy hill and that's when a loose car will get spooky.

PS - did get your PM - I'll reply later, but I'm not generally very local to you.

Steve.

rustyzook wrote:you will have to cut the headlight holders

Nope.
The old swampers I ran (marked a 33) measured about 34.5 inches tall.
Did not rub the headlight bucket at all.
The spring is being inverted at that stage and is getting effectivley shorter again. SPUA the spring is about flat at that point and as long as it is likley to get.

Gwagensteve wrote:

ajsr wrote:she,s really an offroad vehicle
so a bit loose isn't too big an issue
off road handling is the big issue.

Not having a go at all, but this is a common misconception.

A car that is loose and handles poorly on road will also be loose and handle poorly offroad- all the same forces are at work. A car that does something horrible on road will also do the same horrible thing offroad.
About the only area that can be different is roll stiffness - Offroad, lower roll stiffness is desirable than you'd normally permit onroad, which is why disconnecting a front swaybar can be beneficial offroad.

Just because a car flexes well on an obstacle doesn't mean it handles well. To have a car that handles well offroad lots of attention has to be paid to axle location, shock valving, and mostly centre of gravity, and if those things are right offroad, the car should also track straight and drive well on road.

To an extent, this will depend on the type of driving you do - very low speed crawling will allow a much looser car to work than if you have to hit stuff with speed, but generally, in Victoria, we'll all have to use some momentum sooner or later to hit a greasy hill and that's when a loose car will get spooky.


Steve.

It feels wrong even typing it but I agree 100% with Steve ... now I feel all dirty.

Gwagensteve wrote: Flogged 2" lift rears might work if they have enough rate. Remember stock fronts are about 220lb/in and stock rears are 150lb/in - using a rear int he front immedately lowers the rate and that's not generally good in a SPOA application- you need a stiffer spring to locate the axle than in a SPUA application.

I just finished putting some longer springs in the front of my Sierra. They are Holden Scurry (rebadged Carry van) (this donor van was complianced to seat 7!!!). They are 980 eye to eye length (not full length rear, but longer than fronts), also the fixed end to centre pin distance I think was the same as Sierra rears, so the axle goes to the same place as a RUF. The springs have a very high rate, I dont have the numbers but they are allot stiffer than Sierra rear springs; comparable to Sierra fronts, though a bit stiffer. I've mixed these scurry top leaves with a mixture of Sierra rears, and OME fronts to make my new packs; despite the stiffness they ride terrifically (soft ride and little body roll) and flex pretty well too.

Sorry for the short story, Just that the Carry/Scurry leaves might offer a stiffer option than the Sierra springs and might suit your needs.

thanks for the help so far guys youv'e been great

I borrowed a set of 35 TSL swampers from a mate today WOW they are big farkers measured up a 35 .75 inces at 12 lbs.

this might be a big ask fitting 35's under the little zook, Ill get it fitted to a zook rim tomorrow and see.

oh yeah and no wackey shackles mud . ive got plenty of flex ,I more need the space for the big rubber.

I need the bigger rubber to make up for the extra track width dropping me into the ruts (big arse vic ruts suck arse now)

ajsr wrote:thanks for the help so far guys youv'e been great

I borrowed a set of 35 TSL swampers from a mate today WOW they are big farkers measured up a 35 .75 inces at 12 lbs.

this might be a big ask fitting 35's under the little zook, Ill get it fitted to a zook rim tomorrow and see.

oh yeah and no wackey shackles mud . ive got plenty of flex ,I more need the space for the big rubber.

I need the bigger rubber to make up for the extra track width dropping me into the ruts (big arse vic ruts suck arse now)

All that weight is good and bad. Baja claws are worse ... worn 35x12.5 on a speedy 15x8 was about 55kgs .. 220Kgs worth of rubber .. great for flexing springs, and keeping weight down low for stability , hard on bending springs and twisting diff houseings ,, thats alot of intertia to overcome each time you want to get moving. You also need to motivea them extra Kgs to climb to.

love_mud wrote:

ajsr wrote: All that weight is good and bad. Baja claws are worse ... worn 35x12.5 on a speedy 15x8 was about 55kgs .. 220Kgs worth of rubber .. great for flexing springs, and keeping weight down low for stability , hard on bending springs and twisting diff houseings ,, thats alot of intertia to overcome each time you want to get moving. You also need to motivea them extra Kgs to climb to.

what about trac bar in the front and rear? i know some people say you can lose flex and others say it doesnt

im no expert and still sorting out my front springs. but what ive sort of come up with is maybe a stock rear leaf pace maybe take the 2nd leaf out and replaced with a heavy due leaf OME whatever so it extends all the way to suport the main. then maybe replace the load leaf with an ....... load leaf?
i think replacing the 2nd leaf with a heavy duety one should still alow good flex and keep axel wrap undercontrol. but im not too shure on the load leaf

but i recon ultimatly front and rear trac bar with just a standard leaf pack that would allow for soft springs like a SPUA

Spidertrax Anti-Wrap Kit

The Spidertrax Anti-Wrap Kit is designed to completely eliminate the effects of rear axle wrap, making s-kinked springs history. In addition, adding the Spidertrax Anti-Wrap Kit increases effective traction! The unique design of this kit places the lower link mount on the underside of the rear axle. The dynamics of this setup not only properly eliminates axle wrap but allows for proper motion of the suspension without binding.

What sets this design aside from the rest? Ladder-bar designs can cause severe suspension bind and can even twist the axle housing. Top axle mounted traction bar designs can actually induce axle wrap and also cause increased squatting under acceleration. The Spidertrax Anti-Wrap Kits simple and effective design make it an ideal modification for any Samurai SPOA suspension.

It's a single bar so it's nothing special- don't believe everything you read on a manufacturers website. Apparently Hiclones add 20Hp.

Don't believe you can de-rate your springs if you fit a central traction bar - the bar prevents wrap, but it doesn't stop motion in any other direction (if it did, it would prevent flex) so you can still wrap diagonally - normally this means the car rolls to one side under power and the rear axle tries to drive under the car. All sorts of other horrible wobbly stuff can still happen. You are still placing more leverage on the springs in all directions with a SPOA than a SPUA.

The amount of travel you can get out of a leaf is related to it's free arch. Adding a secondary leaf with more arch to a flatter main leaf won't add travel. Ask me how I know - I've done exactly this in the front of my sierra and did not gain any travel.

Steve.

ive been read up on a few of the american sites about the spider trac bar and they recon it reduces it to a resonable amount but dont not 100% stop it

and what you said about adding a 2nd leaf wont add travel. i know it wont add travel but it could maybe help control axel wrap on a SPOA RUF?

brendan_h wrote:ive been read up on a few of the american sites about the spider trac bar and they recon it reduces it to a resonable amount but dont not 100% stop it

and what you said about adding a 2nd leaf wont add travel. i know it wont add travel but it could maybe help control axel wrap on a SPOA RUF?

if you are not after travel why do a RUF? improved ride and increased wheel travel would be the 2 main reasons for a RUF and stiffening up the spring pack would restrict both.
Peter.

That's just a function of the rate of the spring though. More rate = less travel (if the spring is flat when installed) or more height if the spring is arched when installed.

Adding a more arched spring as a secondary to a flat main will have basically no effect on travel over fitting a spring with the same arch as the main leaf.


Steve.

ok then.

then how would you controll axel wrap in the front let still alow good flex?

droopypete wrote:

brendan_h wrote:ive been read up on a few of the american sites about the spider trac bar and they recon it reduces it to a resonable amount but dont not 100% stop it

and what you said about adding a 2nd leaf wont add travel. i know it wont add travel but it could maybe help control axel wrap on a SPOA RUF?

if you are not after travel why do a RUF? improved ride and increased wheel travel would be the 2 main reasons for a RUF and stiffening up the spring pack would restrict both.
Peter.

My guess woudl be for firewall clearance.

my zook is rough and harsh buying it alread with the spoa i dont know what a stock zook feels like i did it to add more flex. i dont think i am getting axel wrap in the front onroad underbrakeing and i havent beed offroad with it yet as im still trying to sort a few more things out.

correct me if i wrong but under acceleration in 4wd axel wrap in the front is no where near as bad as the rear? but under braking the front cops it ? if that is correct what about making a custom pack with an exta spring on 1 side of the pack similar to the bonz eyes springs?

Without sounding like a stick in the mud, why bother spending so much time and money on trying to get leaf springs to work when for only marginly more you can go coils?

There's plenty of info on Pirate including link calculators to help you out. Either RUF or coils would need engineering anyway.

good questions. shouldnt have told me that i spent 2 days relocating my shocks mounts to suit the ruf hopfully they will still work with standard front springs if there is a need for them. i only did half ruf. thinking about it now if i do go back to front spring i dont think my shock mounts are going to work

also my reason for ruf is for some reason they held the weight of my front bar and winch better then front springs

sierrajim wrote:Without sounding like a stick in the mud, why bother spending so much time and money on trying to get leaf springs to work when for only marginly more you can go coils?

At least partially because there's alot of "unfinished project" coil coversion cars kicking around that are floppy, bumpsteery, break, and otherwise fail to do the job.

If you can't troubleshoot RUF with a SPOA, you can't handle a coil conversion.

Brendan_H has also previously ruled out the springs that could solve his problems (TT Bonz-eye) on the grounds he can't justify the cost, so a coil conversion is going to be out of the question based on cost too, especially if Brendan wants it engineered or has to pay for any labour.

Let's be honest sierrajim, there's some amazing craftsmanship on Pirate, but theres a lot of mouthbreathing sisterhumpin fab too, and those guys also have access to all the brackets/links/calculators etc. There's an unfinshed project coil car I was looking at the other day and it's full of all the scary stuff you could imagine, but someone, somewhere thought it was the shizzle.

Steve.

bonz eyes spring i can justify the cost if i know 100% they will work. i dont know anyone here on outers who has tryed them.i have google them and seen maybe 2 or 3 people who has them but not much info on the working of them. the theory in them is good but will they acelly work? they say they are 2inch lifted and ive read people getting just under 2inch of lift. my curret setup of spring thye are flat and i like them like that
i have not herd of anyone using them in a RUF

brendan mate don't take this the wrong way
but dude you sound like your chasing your tail.


Ive read your thread on spoa and seen your bent spring pics and Im no spoa expert but I recon youve got issuses with that setup.

Is there someone who can look at it for you that knows zooks because if youve done that to springs and havn't even offroaded it theres issues there.

Im an asrehole to my car and my springs dont look like that.

cheers andrew

ajsr wrote:brendan mate don't take this the wrong way
but dude you sound like your chasing your tail.

X2.

You can't have it all - no height, good ride, good flex, spring life and spoa. Even factory SPOA cars ride pretty rough in the front end - (Hilux) and screw front springs up.

Maybe just find some stock rears in it, complete, don't touch them at all, and call that a baseline. They shoudl be durable and fairly flat.

Modify from there to suit.

I've only ever seen one SPOA car keep it's springs in good condition in the front, and that was Droopypete's with stock fronts and massive bumpstops. Mind you, he was destroying rears regularly.

Steve.

them spring where crap and i didnt do it to them i got the car with them on it.

gwagonsteve know what my spring look like now there dead flat. and i have got correct bumpstops in there now that alow the springs to invert a max of 1.5inch.
my post earler aboiut RUF and heavy duty springs in the front was about running 35s. because iv got a 2inch bodylift to fit the motor when the tires i got now go im looking into getting some bigger rubber a true 33s. and being heavyer under braking the front springs will suffer?
pic of current srings
http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/bre ... nt=1-1.jpg

because of the extra droop the RUF allows sorting a front shaft out is also a considerstion the standard uni isnt going to allow enough angle i dont think.i havent got to that stage yet as ive been having tcase issues.

brendan is that nut loose on the end of your drag link???

You can't have it all - no height, good ride, good flex, spring life and spoa. Even factory SPOA cars ride pretty rough in the front end - (Hilux) and screw front springs up.



I dont know why steve but mine (SPOA) rides really soft so much so that all my sierra driving mates comment on how soft it is.Only catch is it also drives fairly loose if you follow me.

put that swamper TSL on it measures 35.75 inches at 20 psi
it fits under as is whilst sitting on the groundand I get full lock both ways but man it giong to be real TIGHT under compression. Even with ext bumpstops.

I could maybe fix it with a small body lift but i dont think in victoria I need any more height than the spoa gives.It's getting TOO high now.
the issue with clearance will be the firewall and headlight bucket hence the RUF idea then I only cut the bucket. any thoughts??