Outer Limits 4x4 Board

We have finished Marin's integrated 4 cored Laminova intercooler so it's time to start the generic bolt on version. Something more akin to mine that bolts on the 40. The aim again will be serviceability of the engine, so we are looking at easy removal for access as well as bolting up to a stock manifold.

The first GQ version will be like Marin's using a Telstar rad for the heat exchanger the GU we will have to wait and see.

We finished up with Marin gaining 26% more KW and 29% in Torque along with cooler EGT's

Andy at Dzltec said it was the first he had seen break through 100KW on a stock fuel pump. Finally making 100.8 with a single thermo and 104.5 when we added a second thermo fan.

All the results and info for Marin's is here in the link below.

http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/ftopic139640-0-0-asc-.php

So here is an idea of what we have planned



Busman is the GQ test subject with his TD42T Auto 4 door Wagon and it look like Benhl will be the GU.

these are awesome, will you guys be working out a rough cost for the bolt on cooler after the first 2 are built?

as always workman ship is impressive, cant wait to see final costing,

ozy1 wrote:these are awesome, will you guys be working out a rough cost for the bolt on cooler after the first 2 are built?

as always workman ship is impressive, cant wait to see final costing,

No once we have made these 2 we will have an exact cost.

Volume may reduce the cost, we will have to see what interest there is at the end of the build.

thats good news, depending on the cost i may be interested in 2, i have a factory GU TD42t with 3" exhaust and i believe it has been tuned. also have a GU TD 42 with after market turbo, this would suit both these, i have been looking at frozen boost recently,

like i said depending on the cost, could possibly go 2,

keep up the awesome work.

Will you be looking at a direct replacement for the Top mount in the Tdi?

Ie keeping with the original hosing, position & size of the original top mount but putting one of these on there (With the extra bits that make it work of course)

ddr wrote:Will you be looking at a direct replacement for the Top mount in the Tdi?

Ie keeping with the original hosing, position & size of the original top mount but putting one of these on there (With the extra bits that make it work of course)

I'm not sure, Laminova make cores 198mm up to 407mm the shorter may suit this size better but the issue is cost, with the cores new at over $270 each for the short one
I have not seen any other cores on Ebay other than the 392mm ones. We are basically making hay while we can, once the Ebay cores dry up these intercoolers will be too costly to be finical viable for most 4x4's. Even with the Ebay cores they are still expensive but not to the point where its just not worth it or so I believe.

Just curious but does any one know the cost of a new top mount if you had to replace one?

How much will the results vary by running a more usable sized radiator?

Because Marin's one is just bloody huge.. I may not be grasping the concept of this cooler.. does it just work so well because of the massive radiator up front?

matt.mcinnes wrote:Just curious but does any one know the cost of a new top mount if you had to replace one?

Big O does a replacement top mount A-2-A kit for factory TD42Ti for $770 on ebay + postage...

Rhysta wrote:How much will the results vary by running a more usable sized radiator?

Because Marin's one is just bloody huge.. I may not be grasping the concept of this cooler.. does it just work so well because of the massive radiator up front?

Given how much difference a second electric fan made, my guess is that you do need big water-cooling capacity up the front, yeah.

Retail on a new top mount for a 3 litre GU is in the region of $1600-1700, 4.2 is probably similar, i'll find out. Quite expensive and they do split/leak on the 3 litres, that's why Trikfab does a replacement core for them haven't heard of the same issue on the 2.8 or 4.2, others may know differently. Makes a generic bolt on Laminova intercooler look quite reasonable, especially given the performance potential.

Cheers,

Ben

Rhysta wrote:How much will the results vary by running a more usable sized radiator?

Because Marin's one is just bloody huge.. I may not be grasping the concept of this cooler.. does it just work so well because of the massive radiator up front?

These Laminova cores remove huge amounts of heat very quickly, you can see this on the graph when Marin's pre intercooler temp hits 105C and the post air temp is actually going down at the most extreme time on the dyno.



Shifting so much heat requires a large heat exchanger to get rid of that as fast as you can add heat to the water.

My opinion of the first test with one fan is, each run showed pretty much the same result temps decreasing. This at first was a little perplexing. But after some though I came to the logical conclusion that each run on the dyno ran the intake temps up to around 105C, at this point test ends and the large dyno blower fan cuts off at a time when the intercoolers heat exchanger actually needs the most cooling as it is sill trying to dissipate all the heat, one fan in this situation although cooling the water did not do it quickly enough to dissipate the heat between each run. 2 fans double this ability. The dyno is not really world driving, infact the stop start nature is more akin to tackling a hard obstacle off road time and time again, but no body ever does that do they and the harshest of test it could come up against. It passed test with flying colour in my opinion.

Were looking into been able to test Marin's on the road at least post intercooler just for more data.

So as to your question of a smaller heat exchanger, yes you could but you'r removing its ability to recover quicker and at some point you can go too small, then you will suffer with heat soak as it not large enough.
Better quality heat exchangers are an option, smaller but better cooling but again all these things cost more. Like life everything is a trade off.

My 2c the bigger and better quality you can fit the better.

chimpboy wrote:

Rhysta wrote:How much will the results vary by running a more usable sized radiator?

Because Marin's one is just bloody huge.. I may not be grasping the concept of this cooler.. does it just work so well because of the massive radiator up front?

Given how much difference a second electric fan made, my guess is that you do need big water-cooling capacity up the front, yeah.

An intercooler is trying to remove heat like a radiator so the bigger the heat exchanger/radiator the more water there is in the system which helps to remove heat. This system has been built to try and remove heat and lower intake temperatures so reducing the cooling system capacity may reduce its performance. I looked at Marin's Mav on Sunday and everything fits behind the grille with some trimming, including the 2 spal fans. I looked at it because my Gq's auto so i've got auto coolers as well and they will fit. I'm getting the bolt on generic one so we'll see how it goes. It's not just the radiator though it's all about surface area for the intake charge to pass over and heat transfer through the water system.

Thanks Matt,

Your descriptions better than mine, we must have been typing at the same time!

Ben

busman wrote:

chimpboy wrote:

Rhysta wrote:How much will the results vary by running a more usable sized radiator?

Because Marin's one is just bloody huge.. I may not be grasping the concept of this cooler.. does it just work so well because of the massive radiator up front?

Given how much difference a second electric fan made, my guess is that you do need big water-cooling capacity up the front, yeah.

An intercooler is trying to remove heat like a radiator so the bigger the heat exchanger/radiator the more water there is in the system which helps to remove heat. This system has been built to try and remove heat and lower intake temperatures so reducing the cooling system capacity may reduce its performance. I looked at Marin's Mav on Sunday and everything fits behind the grille with some trimming, including the 2 spal fans. I looked at it because my Gq's auto so i've got auto coolers as well and they will fit. I'm getting the bolt on generic one so we'll see how it goes. It's not just the radiator though it's all about surface area for the intake charge to pass over and heat transfer through the water system.

Space is at a premium for me behind my grill..

Winch hits the aircon condenser. so telstar rad is out of the question, which is a bummer becuase I like this style of cooler.

Basically just wanted to run it offset to the winch, at least that was the idea.

If your not concerned about you grill how about a pair of smaller heat exchangers one each side of the high mount pipped together, if you have a tray even easier.

Rhysta wrote:

busman wrote:

chimpboy wrote:

Rhysta wrote:How much will the results vary by running a more usable sized radiator?

Because Marin's one is just bloody huge.. I may not be grasping the concept of this cooler.. does it just work so well because of the massive radiator up front?

Given how much difference a second electric fan made, my guess is that you do need big water-cooling capacity up the front, yeah.

An intercooler is trying to remove heat like a radiator so the bigger the heat exchanger/radiator the more water there is in the system which helps to remove heat. This system has been built to try and remove heat and lower intake temperatures so reducing the cooling system capacity may reduce its performance. I looked at Marin's Mav on Sunday and everything fits behind the grille with some trimming, including the 2 spal fans. I looked at it because my Gq's auto so i've got auto coolers as well and they will fit. I'm getting the bolt on generic one so we'll see how it goes. It's not just the radiator though it's all about surface area for the intake charge to pass over and heat transfer through the water system.

Space is at a premium for me behind my grill..

Winch hits the aircon condenser. so telstar rad is out of the question, which is a bummer becuase I like this style of cooler.

Basically just wanted to run it offset to the winch, at least that was the idea.

possibly 2 smaller (even motorbike ) Rad's with a fan on each.....

I'm in the same position with winch hitting and no room back there... two radiators each with fans on either side of the high mount is probablly the best option, and i was thinking of also adding a water resivoir (sp?) in the system somewhere to increase capacity - that can go anywhere.

benhl wrote:I'm in the same position with winch hitting and no room back there... two radiators each with fans on either side of the high mount is probablly the best option, and i was thinking of also adding a water resivoir (sp?) in the system somewhere to increase capacity - that can go anywhere.

A reservoir is an excellent idea in this situation and again the bigger the better.

How do you think the cores are made? Have you try'd approaching anyone local to see if these can be reproduced over here cheaper?

SilverBulletBM wrote:How do you think the cores are made? Have you try'd approaching anyone local to see if these can be reproduced over here cheaper?

The cores are patented

matt.mcinnes wrote:

SilverBulletBM wrote:How do you think the cores are made? Have you try'd approaching anyone local to see if these can be reproduced over here cheaper?

The cores are patented

Reproduce with a slight variation, warrants a new patent if I remember rightly

clm434 wrote:

matt.mcinnes wrote:

SilverBulletBM wrote:How do you think the cores are made? Have you try'd approaching anyone local to see if these can be reproduced over here cheaper?

The cores are patented

Reproduce with a slight variation, warrants a new patent if I remember rightly

Yes true but out of our budget range this kind of RnD along with tooling up would not be cost effective at this time with the volumes involved.

Surely there would be someone on this forum who would be able to have the skills, talent, qualification and machinery availible to get some knocked up.
From wat i can remember from the pics its a cylinder inside a cylinder, blocked off ends with small water holes, and some fins on the outer cylinder, am i right?

SilverBulletBM wrote:Surely there would be someone on this forum who would be able to have the skills, talent, qualification and machinery availible to get some knocked up.
From wat i can remember from the pics its a cylinder inside a cylinder, blocked off ends with small water holes, and some fins on the outer cylinder, am i right?

They are not quite so simple and not something you can just knock together. They are extruded to start with this in it's self would be expensive to tool up for even if you own an Aluminum extruding line.

But here is the drawing from them from the Laminova site for anyone who wants to try but limited info on it.

http://www.laminova-online.se/Upload/8813794.PDF

The question on everyones lips, when will you make these available for sale?

jet-6 wrote:The question on everyones lips, when will you make these available for sale?

If all goes to plan 6 to 8 weeks will be nice but this depends on Busman a little so maybe longer, were not in a rush, I would like to get this one up and running and tested first. We will also have a good idea of the fabrication cost too for a final price.

I was considering doing a small run of maybe 10 units if the demand is their, this way we should be able to bring the costs down a little even with a small run. I'm not sure, their seems to be a lot of interest but the cost of these units may make some think twice even with the gains to be had.

If your serious post up I have white board with a few names down already, Busman was at the top of the GQ list

Hey I like the concept of this yet im not convinced, not bagging the product its just that why are some of these turbo diesel trucks pulling over 170kw at the wheels and either running a generic front mount, or top mount air to air cooler.

I understand the fact the inlet temps have dropped considerably but without and fuel and boost (or the right setup) your may not really know the true capabilities of this setup.

I guess what I'm trying to say be interesting to compare your setup with an air to air setup on a truck that has modded pump, roller turbo, i.e all the bells and whistles.... As i know with mine my temps arent that hot and i havnt got a great deal of fuel i can up my fuel alot more and get another 15kws but my temps go up 50c.

It would be interesting, to have your kit bolted on and the trucks that were running 170kw being able to run 200kw and still have reduced temps....

cheers

James

and Me and the top of the GU one... FYI matt I'm speaking to my Mechanic tomorrow...

weeman wrote: be interesting to compare your setup with an air to air setup on a truck that has modded pump, roller turbo, i.e all the bells and whistles.... As i know with mine my temps arent that hot and i havnt got a great deal of fuel i can up my fuel alot more and get another 15kws but my temps go up 50c.

It would be interesting, to have your kit bolted on and the trucks that were running 170kw being able to run 200kw and still have reduced temps....

cheers

James

Mines still on the dyno, but that's my intention. currently most of the bells and whistles but no IC at all. Looking circa 150rwkw on 35's and std 3.9 diffs. I'll get final figures, and then use these as a "before" example. Bolt her on then run an "after" dyno...