Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Has anyone got information about installing a vh45 into a GQ patrol. I am supa interested in putting one into my Class 8 truck but me Dyno shop want to go ls2 which is a proven motor but old school to me.. I like the idea of Quad cam 32 Valves etc so i can rev it's ringer all day.. any info would be helpful so I can make my mind up..

Coops

PM Darin, he has done this here in NZ, turboed too

http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/ftopic913 ... light=vh45

yeah its been done in aus and twin turbo'd made like 550 hp on gas i think it was forsale on here not that long ago. 6bolt mains and a big chunk of metal wich holds the crank in place there bomb proof, there actually a better motor than the lexus just not much has been done to them in aus or abroad

http://www.promotive.com.au/_misc/Patrol.htm
chech it out found the beast for ya

The Stock VH45 is lacking in torque and HP, you would be far better off with a TB48 or go the L76, LS2 for superior torque and HP.

There are people who have done the VH45 and then the L76 due to dissatisfaction with the VH45.

Joel

PGS 4WD wrote:The Stock VH45 is lacking in torque and HP, you would be far better off with a TB48 or go the L76, LS2 for superior torque and HP.

There are people who have done the VH45 and then the L76 due to dissatisfaction with the VH45.

Joel

maybe, but like the lexus V8 they are a strong donk with lots of potential, whosyourdaddy bought one a few years ago that had the twin turbo, running very low boost and was still scary apparently.


I am told that the best engine to work on is the original 4.2 carby with the 4.2efi or 4.5efi gear on it, so I would not be ruching oujt to throw a 4.5 or 4.8 in it personally. buy a dead 4.3 and rebuild it to suit with decent pistons and all the gear on it and throw that in

This is a link to a write up on my truck.
http://www.nicoclub.com/ROTM/rotmfeb09.shtml

I'll add that you can get similar power from a TB but it will take a lot of boost and you won't have the drivablity of a wide rev range with a progressive power delivery. There is more to power than just a dyno figure. How is the power delivered and where. Nothing down low and then a huge surge as the boost builds to some huge figure is useless in real world as all it does in spin wheels.
For simplicty I'd do an LSx conversion becuase everyone has done it before. But the VH is a built proof motor and will provide very good power with limited work. It is not going to provide the down low torque of a 5.7 (or bigger( motor as it is only 4.5l. Also it won't provide the power at 1500 like a TB but then a TB won't have a power band of 5000rpm. (without taking the heads on the motor)
You will have the same problems as any V8 fitting it into a Patrol but with quad cams they are seriously wide so that does add a few issues to fitting it in. Out of the factory they use the same auto as a Patrol and with one of Wholesale automatics manual valve bodies they go really well. With my turboed VH (280rwkw) the trans temp doesn't get above 85*. Even when thrashing it on short courses in 1st and 2nd gears in hot weather.

Some stats that everyone forgets.
peak torque 400nm at 4000rpm
80% at 2000rpm eg 320nm
90% at 6900rpm eg 360nm
This is in factory spec.
So all the no torque people, it has the same torque at 2000rpm as a TD42t.
So I'm not saying it is better than a Chev or a TB but it does things differently!
A LSx will be lighter (Just) but a TB is over 100kg heavier!

If youre after one let me know.

Got a VH45 all ancillaries, Gearbox, Loom, ECU's etc sitting on a stand with 80 000kms on it.

Much as I am attracted to the idea of a VH45 swap, and really wanted to get excited about it once upon a time, I don't think it is a good engine for a Patrol. Bottom line is it is just not a big enough engine.

The reality is that in one sense the VH45 is a better engineered motor, but bang for bucks you will be better off putting in the Chevy engine.

Just my thoughts.

chimpboy wrote:Much as I am attracted to the idea of a VH45 swap, and really wanted to get excited about it once upon a time, I don't think it is a good engine for a Patrol. Bottom line is it is just not a big enough engine.

The reality is that in one sense the VH45 is a better engineered motor, but bang for bucks you will be better off putting in the Chevy engine.

Just my thoughts.

I saw Ptrool parked 'abandoned' in Erics yard today :( might offer him a grand for it.

chimpboy wrote:Much as I am attracted to the idea of a VH45 swap, and really wanted to get excited about it once upon a time, I don't think it is a good engine for a Patrol. Bottom line is it is just not a big enough engine.

The reality is that in one sense the VH45 is a better engineered motor, but bang for bucks you will be better off putting in the Chevy engine.

Just my thoughts.

I NEARLY bought a VH45 engine, but the gearbox options are not available basically the nissan auto is about it, and they are expensive to trick up in comparison to GM and quite long...

bogged wrote:

chimpboy wrote:Much as I am attracted to the idea of a VH45 swap, and really wanted to get excited about it once upon a time, I don't think it is a good engine for a Patrol. Bottom line is it is just not a big enough engine.

The reality is that in one sense the VH45 is a better engineered motor, but bang for bucks you will be better off putting in the Chevy engine.

Just my thoughts.

I saw Ptrool parked 'abandoned' in Erics yard today :( might offer him a grand for it.

I will go $1250. I used to really like that car. But it had had a hard live before Eric got it.

turps wrote:

bogged wrote:

chimpboy wrote:Much as I am attracted to the idea of a VH45 swap, and really wanted to get excited about it once upon a time, I don't think it is a good engine for a Patrol. Bottom line is it is just not a big enough engine.

The reality is that in one sense the VH45 is a better engineered motor, but bang for bucks you will be better off putting in the Chevy engine.

Just my thoughts.

I saw Ptrool parked 'abandoned' in Erics yard today :( might offer him a grand for it.

I will go $1250. I used to really like that car. But it had had a hard live before Eric got it.

I reckon ADam would buy it back!

Tiny wrote:

PGS 4WD wrote:The Stock VH45 is lacking in torque and HP, you would be far better off with a TB48 or go the L76, LS2 for superior torque and HP.

There are people who have done the VH45 and then the L76 due to dissatisfaction with the VH45.

Joel

maybe, but like the lexus V8 they are a strong donk with lots of potential, whosyourdaddy bought one a few years ago that had the twin turbo, running very low boost and was still scary apparently.

Its a lot easier to turbo a straight six than a V8, you can buy a manifold bolt it on, 2 less injectors to buy and every bit as much power in an engine designed to produce peak power at 5000 rpm not 6000 rpm as is best suited for heavier vehicles.

The 4.2 is a good engine but it isn't in the league of the 4.8 for outright potential. 12 psi on a 4.2 will get 220 rwkW and 260rwkW in a 4.8, cubic inches and technology are good.

1MadEngineer wrote:

chimpboy wrote:Much as I am attracted to the idea of a VH45 swap, and really wanted to get excited about it once upon a time, I don't think it is a good engine for a Patrol. Bottom line is it is just not a big enough engine.

The reality is that in one sense the VH45 is a better engineered motor, but bang for bucks you will be better off putting in the Chevy engine.

Just my thoughts.

I NEARLY bought a VH45 engine, but the gearbox options are not available basically the nissan auto is about it, and they are expensive to trick up in comparison to GM and quite long...

There's a new adpator for a T400 trans out now so that should solve that problem. It reuqires the T400 to have the bellhousing removed but apartly this is a common mod for them. Never touch a T400 so have no idea. Does bring some interesting options into play though.

Also mine has had standard rebuild with a few better parts ie $3500 instead of $3000 plus a manual valve body from Wholesale Automatics. And it is proving to be quite capable of the hp and not running hot at all. So yeah a t400 is cheaper but it isn't that big a deal.

PGS 4WD wrote:
Its a lot easier to turbo a straight six than a V8, you can buy a manifold bolt it on, 2 less injectors to buy and every bit as much power in an engine designed to produce peak power at 5000 rpm not 6000 rpm as is best suited for heavier vehicles.

The 4.2 is a good engine but it isn't in the league of the 4.8 for outright potential. 12 psi on a 4.2 will get 220 rwkW and 260rwkW in a 4.8, cubic inches and technology are good.

Unfortunately mine has less power at 5000rpm (but at only 10psi) than a TB48, it only has 250kw (approx from the dyno graph) but after that it has more. At what revs is a TB48 boosting and producing power?

There is a very expensive TB42 that I race against, that is running a lot more than 12psi (26 I think) and it is only getting 226kw. This motor cost more than my motor, conversion, ecu, cdi, manifolds, wiring, auto, dyno etc all pu together, and I have 54kw more!

I can only base my assumptions upon what I've seen and experienced. That is that while a TB can produce a lot of power, it needs a lot of work as opposed to mine that has had manifolds made, a turbo fitted and an ecu. And then it still has more power? How can this make the TB a better option? And it is heavier by over 100kgs!

A chev is cheaper no question but it is a chev!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

chimpboy wrote: I don't think it is a good engine for a Patrol. Bottom line is it is just not a big enough engine.
.

how do you get "its not a big enough engine" when from factory they are smaller (2.8, 3.0) or the same (4.2, 4.5) besides the newish 4.8?

cheers mark

mud4b wrote:

chimpboy wrote: I don't think it is a good engine for a Patrol. Bottom line is it is just not a big enough engine.
.

how do you get "its not a big enough engine" when from factory they are smaller (2.8, 3.0) or the same (4.2, 4.5) besides the newish 4.8?

cheers mark

That's very true. I guess I was thinking more in terms of justifying the effort of an engine swap.

Hey Fella's .. Thanks 4 the feed back ( Used 2 be Bosshog can't work a computer so change sign in) we did get off the subject a little ... The size is not an issue as the patrol has a tube front end outer guards only.. It's got 12in coilovers with double bypass shocks in the front and 16in rears also with double bypass shocks and hydo bump stops in front... it's just a cab the rest is fibreglass... Also class 8 the engine has to remain under 6ltr's in size i worked out that if you want to force induct anything it has 2 be under 3.5 ltrs X 1.7 = 5.95 ltrs so sticking a turbo on a 4.2- 4.5-4.8 is out of the question as it starts @ 7.14 ltrs plus... the reason i was looking at the vh motor is it's strenght I need to rev it's ring out 4 885 klms for 2 day in the condo 750 etc....

coops

Do they run an open class category where the engine size can be larger, or is the six litre the biggest engine capacity you can race.

Coops,

Though the VH sounds like a good design, the Chev has all the go-faster gear at your finger tips. Over the counter your can get valves, rockers, lifters, forged rods, pistons & cranks in a variety of sizes and hp levels.

Many people have already invested considerable time in cam shaft profiles with blanks available and countless hours on flow-benches.

The Chev is cheaper, lighter, smaller and will product better power from the larger capacity.

Depends on whether you want to win races or not.

- David.

tarsuxs wrote:Do they run an open class category where the engine size can be larger, or is the six litre the biggest engine capacity you can race.

That would be when you really enter cheque book racing...

6 ltr is the biggest size u r allowed... Aust safar.. finke etc all cams events...

Coops

http://www.bde-performance.com/th400_adaptor.htm

For those interested a US crowd doing adaptors for the VH motor to th400, 4L80e, powerglide etc.

nzdarin wrote:

PGS 4WD wrote:
Its a lot easier to turbo a straight six than a V8, you can buy a manifold bolt it on, 2 less injectors to buy and every bit as much power in an engine designed to produce peak power at 5000 rpm not 6000 rpm as is best suited for heavier vehicles.

The 4.2 is a good engine but it isn't in the league of the 4.8 for outright potential. 12 psi on a 4.2 will get 220 rwkW and 260rwkW in a 4.8, cubic inches and technology are good.

Unfortunately mine has less power at 5000rpm (but at only 10psi) than a TB48, it only has 250kw (approx from the dyno graph) but after that it has more. At what revs is a TB48 boosting and producing power?

There is a very expensive TB42 that I race against, that is running a lot more than 12psi (26 I think) and it is only getting 226kw. This motor cost more than my motor, conversion, ecu, cdi, manifolds, wiring, auto, dyno etc all pu together, and I have 54kw more!

I can only base my assumptions upon what I've seen and experienced. That is that while a TB can produce a lot of power, it needs a lot of work as opposed to mine that has had manifolds made, a turbo fitted and an ecu. And then it still has more power? How can this make the TB a better option? And it is heavier by over 100kgs!

A chev is cheaper no question but it is a chev!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Unfortunatley I would question the dyno figures not the engines. Dyno Dynamics are innacurate and easily fudged.

The limit with the TB42 is the camshaft, you can make the same power as a TB48 with a larger camshaft which we have done, currently 346 rwkW on 24psi boost with water/methanol foe knock retard. The down side is you loose torque down low wheras the TB48 has the benefit of a 2 position cam advance mechanism. It takes time to cram the air and fuel in that only more lift and duration can ultimatly provide.

I would expect more than 226 on 25 psi or they are doing something wrong. A decent TB42 should be closer to 300 rwkW on that sort of set up. Comparisons are best made on the same dyno with the same operator same tyre size/type and so on. On the other hand 250 on 10 psi is remarkable. Stock they make about 75 N/A, I start to wonder when engines are making over 3 times that power on another .8 of an atmosphere.
If the engine is only 75% efficient when stock, raising the boost to true atmosphere or 100 kpa would give 100 rwkW, 10 psi or roughly .8 bar would be 180 rwkW. Assuming the air temperature dosen't change.

Joel

PGS 4WD wrote:
I would expect more than 226 on 25 psi or they are doing something wrong. A decent TB42 should be closer to 300 rwkW on that sort of set up. Comparisons are best made on the same dyno with the same operator same tyre size/type and so on. On the other hand 250 on 10 psi is remarkable. Stock they make about 75 N/A, I start to wonder when engines are making over 3 times that power on another .8 of an atmosphere.
If the engine is only 75% efficient when stock, raising the boost to true atmosphere or 100 kpa would give 100 rwkW, 10 psi or roughly .8 bar would be 180 rwkW. Assuming the air temperature dosen't change.

Joel

So if by your calculations my truck has 180rwkw, I seriously have to question the logic.
Based on the injector size vs rate etc it should have just over 500hp. So when you go through est. drive train losses etc gets with a ball park of it rwkw.

So based on 10psi increasing power by about 2/3 (being 2/3 1 atosphere and that doubling power) then going backwards from the est flywheel hp should be interesting to see.
Lets say 500hp divided by 1.66 should equal factory spec plus any gains made by better manifolds and $4k of Autronic ecu.
500 divided by 1.66 is 312hp. Factory spec is 280hp so an increase of 32hp by the normal manifold, airfilter tune etc isn't an unrealstic figure.

So those 2 example say the dyno is optomistic but not by that much!