Outer Limits 4x4 Board

i have a superior steering arm and its too short for my set up i want to cut it and extend it with some solid staino round bar and then sleeve it so i can use it as a spare whas the go with welding it....
im a boily but neva welded this i can tig mig stick whts the best and wht wire/rods? thanx pommy

Personally I would not weld a stering arm.
You wish to extend it with soild staino. Whats staino ? Stainless steel maybe?
Have you contact Superior to see if they can swap it for a longer one.

never ever ever EVER weld steering.... its completely illegal and no engineer will ever pass it.

if money is the issue, then wait a while and save up - or forever find yourself asking 'is it going to fail today while im doing 100 down the highway with friends/family in the car?'...

What arm are you talking about?? Pitman arm or the rod between the steering knuckles??

Pitman arm - I cut and shut mine before and wrapped 5mm flat bar all the way around and fully welded and cooled slowly in lime powder.
As for drag link or tie rod it is only push and pull so not much strain on the rods (except if it gets slammed by rocks). Can't see it being a problem but as stated earlier an Engineer won't like it.

see if you can swap it with superior mate. the guys there are awesome to deal with.
I have dealt with michael and he was really good mate.

if its a spare for your comp truck who cares if an engineer would like it or not. i think the replies so far have missed that you are looking to use it as a spare for tuff truck.

you have a PM too mate.

Depending on what arm it really is:
Cut it, thread internally, add threaded rod with 2 jam nuts.

Bazzle

Hi all...Pom,yes you can tig weld it.if you going to use a different grade stainless to join,use the appropriate grade wire to to join the 2 different grade metals.Never weld stainless with to high of heat,it degrades the stainless.

Nothing wrong with welding steering - 95% of race cars have welded steering. Normally all steering links are made with tube with weld in bungs.

On the road its less than legal.

As for a superior steering arm I would NOT weld it. Its over .120 wall and NEEDS very special heat treatment - heating with an oxy is NOT heat treatment its bastardization of the metal. It needs pre heat in an oven prior to welding then post heat treatment to normalise it. I have welded stainless to 4130 (for a worthless industrial application) and it cracked along the entire welds area.

As for welding 4130 its TIG you need. Its an open argument but I would not weld it personally, I have seen many welds crack on things like trays and bull bars when licked with a mig.

Sell the draglink and get another one.

yeh thanx guys its the arm that goes across the diff from nuckle to nuckle its only for a spair as my one is bent to the sh*t house and i got a chromo one for free! if you can weld it shouldnt brake at all i found out you can tig root run then stick cap run and can get chromo filler wire and sticks..
all im going to do is cut the arm 150mm from the end and add a peice of solid round bar full weld it then sleeve the whole arm with atleast 6mm wall pipe so should be ok and its a comp truck not a everyday rig atm

ahhhh so you're talking about the tie-rod... thats still important, if it snaps you lose steering on one wheel =)

best to do it right the first time.

When building my car all those years ago The engineer told me that if any steering component was welded it was deemed to be unsafe & was therefore illegal, so I had to rethink a few things so he would pass it.

Shit you'll never steer the thing. By the time you have the heavy wall cromo bar then the 6mm wall sleeve bar etc the thing will weigh a ton Maybe if you have access to all this stuff free but by the time you buy some filler wire etc and the 6mm wall tube wouldn't you be better off just getting some thick wall tube and getting someone to thread it, then sell the cromoly. You'll also notice Superior do not make anything from cromoly that has to be welded, they use mecavel. reason is cromoly is hard to weld properly without proper heat treatment as mentioned. Small stuff like sheet fabrication and thinner wall tube like roll bars seems to be abotu the limit without treating but thick wall stuff like the steering arms and trailing arms etc need to be treated properly.

And what's the go with doing it dodgy on a comp truck, is it a play truck or the real thing. You don't see too many top winners starting off with dodgy components. Having to cobble something up in the field is one thing but to start off with dodgy parts or even spares is a pretty halfarsed way to go about it.

hmm true but when ive got 3 weeks before tuff truck and i bent my steering arm and im f*cking broke as i get 350buks a week max paying for the comp truck and a normal car is killing me (but i love it) just asking for some welding advice dont u lot think i no its hell dodgy and unsafe etc etc but if it lasts as a spare it could save my arse in the long run if i get enough money before ttc ill get a new one thanx anyhow

pom wrote:hmm true but when ive got 3 weeks before tuff truck and i bent my steering arm and im f*cking broke as i get 350buks a week max paying for the comp truck and a normal car is killing me (but i love it) just asking for some welding advice dont u lot think i no its hell dodgy and unsafe etc etc but if it lasts as a spare it could save my arse in the long run if i get enough money before ttc ill get a new one thanx anyhow

if you really wanna weld it, maybe get the chromo to join it so your not mixing metals?

or even better, tap it, and join it with a threaded rod and two lock nuts. THen you have an adjustable tie rod.

Also, It is not an arm, its a rod. People are thinking your talking about your pitman or knuckle arms.

pom wrote:hmm true but when ive got 3 weeks before tuff truck and i bent my steering arm and im f*cking broke as i get 350buks a week max paying for the comp truck and a normal car is killing me (but i love it) just asking for some welding advice dont u lot think i no its hell dodgy and unsafe etc etc but if it lasts as a spare it could save my arse in the long run if i get enough money before ttc ill get a new one thanx anyhow

Give me a call during business hours and i will see what we can do to get you a tie rod you can afford.
Last thing i want is a bodgy modified tie rod on a comp truck that will be seen by 50000 spectators at tuff truck.
The material we use is a 4140 solid bar that is by no way recommended to be welded without proper pre/post heat treatment.

If the 4140 is welded ,when it cools it crystalizes in the HAZ and becomes very brittle if the heat treatment is not performed correctly.

This is why we use bolt on damper brackets , to my knowledge we have never had a tie rod or drag link snap. ( i have seen the factory tie rod ends break on comp trucks)
I have seen our tie rods bend but not break like some other brands who use chromoly and weld their brackets on.

As mentioned we also do a mecavel hollow bar tie rod and drag link that can be welded but it does not sound like that is what you have.

Michael

thats bloody good of you michael.
and i can see why you wouldnt want anything breaking infront of a large crowd.

i dont have poms number but have passed the message along to get him to ring you.

good on ya.

Twon

thanx alot for that mate much app.

Hey Mate.

I see you have allready recieved a considerable amount of info.
But there is no way you should weld chromoly, It's to treated to be welded (I.E not natural)
The only was is has to be softened in a Iron oven and then can be re welded. TIG welded only.
But when it is re hardened the welds seem to allways crack.

But trying somthing can't hurt

Jonathan

Yo_jono wrote:But there is no way you should weld chromoly, It's to treated to be welded (I.E not natural)Jonathan

You better tell all the people who make drag cars and airframes then, people have been welding chrome moly since early this century, prior to TIG they oxy welded it - plenty of oxy welded airframes - just don't braze it.
As people have mentioned above, being an air hardenable steel it is ideal to pre-heat in many cases, pre heat depends on carbon content (or equivalent carbon content) and material thickness.

hmm im hearing you as they weld chromeolly cams approved cages and how can they heat treat them in the car????
my boss said its fine all you need is a root run with the tig then cap with stick but as im best tig welder going i would of done it no worries haha but hey on a serious note thanx to superior engineering who have REALLY done me a deal on a new tie rod

Bit off topic, but with regard to welded steering arms, have seen a few done AND pass engineering. Vehicles in question were C30 Chevs, done as part of L to R conversions. Drag links were welded by some specialist welding mob (Brissy i think) and came back with a full report (x-ray, crack test etc) and was OK'ed by the engineer. Cost a packet tho apparently.

pom wrote:hmm im hearing you as they weld chromeolly cams approved cages and how can they heat treat them in the car????
my boss said its fine all you need is a root run with the tig then cap with stick but as im best tig welder going i would of done it no worries haha but hey on a serious note thanx to superior engineering who have REALLY done me a deal on a new tie rod

going from above posts, superiors gear is 4140 which is a touch higher in carbon than 4130 which is a common grade of cro-mo, therefore making it more likely to crack, probably best to avoid too much heat as that would increase chances of trouble, you could post or pre heat something it situ accurately using induction heating gear, i think miller make something for the job.

alien wrote:never ever ever EVER weld steering.... its completely illegal and no engineer will ever pass it.

if money is the issue, then wait a while and save up - or forever find yourself asking 'is it going to fail today while im doing 100 down the highway with friends/family in the car?'...

Nah steering gear won't fail when you're doing 100km/h in a straight line.
If something is going to let go it'll do it when you've just hit a bump in a rough and tight corner.

There are many different grades of chromoly, they range from easily weldable (lower carbon content) to only weldable with strict controls on pre and post temps.

Since superiour have chimed in confirming it is indeed one of the tricker chromolys to weld and they are willing to help then I guess the discussion is over.

We work and weld Chrome/Moly basically every day (Tig process) 4130 is commonly used in tubing and 4140 in hollow bar and solid bar.
4130 is beautiful to weld, you won't find a nicer welding ferrous metal. 4140, not as nice to weld, it almost feels like a lack of side fusion when welding particularly if welding cold without preheat.
Another problem with 4140 is if it's machined it can form a very hard "skin" where the material has been work hardened and this skin isn't weld friendly and should be removed at the weld area.
As an example we weld 4140 eyes to 4130 tubing for Sprintcar axles, if we weld the eyes 1st we have struck problems with cracking (not common but it has happened) but if we weld all the brackets on the axle then the eyes last without stopping, the amount of heat built up through the whole axle makes for a much nicer weld.
Regards Andrew.

pom wrote:hmm im hearing you as they weld chromeolly cams approved cages and how can they heat treat them in the car????
my boss said its fine all you need is a root run with the tig then cap with stick but as im best tig welder going i would of done it no worries haha but hey on a serious note thanx to superior engineering who have REALLY done me a deal on a new tie rod

Hmmmm a boily who can TIG weld well now that's a turn up for the books. You do know the TIG will still function below 100 amps don't you.

My question is, if your a boily and its a spare ... why not simply make a new one ?
It may not be as tough, but by the sound of it neither would welding to 4140 with some stainless stock ...

May as well paint it a nice bright color to boot.

Shadow wrote:

pom wrote:hmm true but when ive got 3 weeks before tuff truck and i bent my steering arm and im f*cking broke as i get 350buks a week max paying for the comp truck and a normal car is killing me (but i love it) just asking for some welding advice dont u lot think i no its hell dodgy and unsafe etc etc but if it lasts as a spare it could save my arse in the long run if i get enough money before ttc ill get a new one thanx anyhow

if you really wanna weld it, maybe get the chromo to join it so your not mixing metals?

or even better, tap it, and join it with a threaded rod and two lock nuts. THen you have an adjustable tie rod.

Also, It is not an arm, its a rod. People are thinking your talking about your pitman or knuckle arms.

Ahhh.. see my post about 10 up re threading

Bazzle

phwoar bazzle lives

bazzle wrote:

Shadow wrote:

pom wrote:hmm true but when ive got 3 weeks before tuff truck and i bent my steering arm and im f*cking broke as i get 350buks a week max paying for the comp truck and a normal car is killing me (but i love it) just asking for some welding advice dont u lot think i no its hell dodgy and unsafe etc etc but if it lasts as a spare it could save my arse in the long run if i get enough money before ttc ill get a new one thanx anyhow

if you really wanna weld it, maybe get the chromo to join it so your not mixing metals?

or even better, tap it, and join it with a threaded rod and two lock nuts. THen you have an adjustable tie rod.

Also, It is not an arm, its a rod. People are thinking your talking about your pitman or knuckle arms.

Ahhh.. see my post about 10 up re threading

Bazzle

WHAT! You expect someone to actually read the comments, to avoid leaving one almost the same? Thats crazy talk... outers would only be 1/10th the size if that happened!

haha just cos im a boily dont mean i cant tig mate!!! im doing a boily apprenticeship and did the first half using only sheet metal stainless and now im at a different place and i do it all 1mm to around 10mm in stainless, mild and alloy and a boily who got asked to rep my tafe in welding at world skills but hey boilys cant tig if only i was as awesome as you champ but thanx for the sensible responses and its old news superior hooked me up very well and am very thankfull