Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Just a thought?? For Flex and nothing much else!

In Stock Form what is the best Front and Rear Suspension set ups??

EG From What I understand Rangie Rear Suspension would be the best in Stock form as its 4link (I think, not sure?)??

But what would be the Best Front in Stock form??
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I have a solid front end with no suspension, basically just wheels onto an axle.
I'm talking about my lawn mower, what are you talking about, Rangies or 4x4s in general?

Both coils and leaves can give big flex, and both can be comfy on road, although coils usually shine in that area.

lump_a_charcoal wrote:I have a solid front end with no suspension, basically just wheels onto an axle.
I'm talking about my lawn mower, what are you talking about, Rangies or 4x4s in general?

Both coils and leaves can give big flex, and both can be comfy on road, although coils usually shine in that area.

Im guessing as this is a 4wd site he is talking 4wds

He is also talking factory suspension.

Personally i would say straight out of the box the Rangie or early Discovery's would have to be the best set up front and rear. I would say the rear is better than anything else and the front is possibly on par with the Patrol and the 80 series. Actually i would also rate the rear suspension in a Vitara of all things. They get good flex in stock form. Shame about the IFS up front.


I guess you could also look at more exotic 4wds such as the Unimogs or and such but i imagine we are talking about the general 4wd market.

jeeps are pretty good out of the box, wranglers especially, jk wranglers even more especially.

Coil sprung Surfs and 4Runners also flex well in the rear

Interesting!

I never thought of a Vitara! Are they basic 3 Link rear??

Im guessing Rear Surf would be almost the same as Bundy rear??? Didnt realise they get good flex!

So most people would agree that Rangie/Disco rear would be best in stock form rear suspension.

Would and 80 series be better than a Patrol in the front? Maybe Rangie/Disco would be better again for flex??

I there anything that comes other than a 3 link front in stocko???

Remydog05 wrote:Interesting!

I never thought of a Vitara! Are they basic 3 Link rear??

Im guessing Rear Surf would be almost the same as Bundy rear??? Didnt realise they get good flex!

So most people would agree that Rangie/Disco rear would be best in stock form rear suspension.

Would and 80 series be better than a Patrol in the front? Maybe Rangie/Disco would be better again for flex??

I there anything that comes other than a 3 link front in stocko???

Jeeps have a 5 link front I think?

Did a bit a of a search via google and yep the lastest Jeeps have 5link front and rear.

any other 5 link fronts???

They do ave 5-link front ends, but the execution of it is absolutely and totally diabolical. The shape of the panhard still blows my mind that an engineer may have possibly designed it, and the links are very very short.

The Vitara rear is similar in design to the Rangie with an A-frame and 2 lower links. IIRC the main difference apart from dimentions is the Rangies A-frame bolts to the axle housing, and the Vitara's bolts to the 3-member.

Personally, I think the Disco2 has a better front suspension that the Disco1/Rangie, but the disco1/Range definately has a better rear setup.

And define best suspension setup.

All the flex in the world won't help you win paris-dakar!

Bundera is radius arm front and rear.

Surf is 5 link rear.

Steve.

Remydog05 wrote:Did a bit a of a search via google and yep the lastest Jeeps have 5link front and rear.

any other 5 link fronts???

All the SFA Jeeps with coils up front have a 5 link setup.

Cheers
Steve

In all honesty, this is a mostly hypothetical question, because factory suspension designs are engineered to work with factory spring lengths - which means generally, about 10" of travel maximum.

Also, suspension designs that generate the most articulation also tend to have very low roll stiffness, and that can create its own problems.

Steve.

Yom wrote:And define best suspension setup.

All the flex in the world won't help you win paris-dakar!

i didnt think the question could be any clearer.
He states " for flex and nothing much else"

so he obviously is not thinking about paris dakkar

imho, i would rate for FLEX the rangie, they flex well in standard form and nothing much else

after you get back from a drive on the road, you have to scrape the bitument back off the door handles though...

JEs

jessie928 wrote:after you get back from a drive on the road, you have to scrape the bitument back off the door handles though...

They always look like they have f.ken soft suspension on them, so I wouldnt doubt that comment!

Struth wrote:Coil sprung Surfs and 4Runners also flex well in the rear

Say what!
I got 2" more travel in the rear of my surf by putting the Koni's from my Rally Gemini into it.

Gemini's have more rear travel than the surf did.....

Paul

me3@neuralfibre.com wrote:

Struth wrote:Coil sprung Surfs and 4Runners also flex well in the rear

Say what!
I got 2" more travel in the rear of my surf by putting the Koni's from my Rally Gemini into it.

Gemini's have more rear travel than the surf did.....

Paul

Didn't take it 4wding much I take it, or it's shockies were wrong length, the 5 link rear is the only thing that saves a Surf when offroad because there is no movement in the IFS front, if the rear didn't flex well you would give up on Surfs the first time you went over a bump more than 300mm tall.

Struth wrote:

me3@neuralfibre.com wrote:

Struth wrote:Coil sprung Surfs and 4Runners also flex well in the rear

Say what!
I got 2" more travel in the rear of my surf by putting the Koni's from my Rally Gemini into it.

Gemini's have more rear travel than the surf did.....

Paul

Didn't take it 4wding much I take it, or it's shockies were wrong length, the 5 link rear is the only thing that saves a Surf when offroad because there is no movement in the IFS front, if the rear didn't flex well you would give up on Surfs the first time you went over a bump more than 300mm tall.

Here's a stock surf:
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa35 ... ture97.jpg

Here's a surf with 2" lift and LC80 shocks in rear (no swaybar)
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa35 ... 008200.jpg

And here's a surf with LC80 springs and very long shocks (i dont have a better picture, but it has some pretty good flex available...and it needs all the help it can get).
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa35 ... 008169.jpg

I realise I started getting carried awya with the photobucket editing tools, but meh who cares. You can see the axle relative to the body.

What the pics don't show is how short the surf's trailing arms are and how much rear steer there is when its fully flexed up. Its not unlike a patrol rear in that respect.

Gwagensteve wrote:In all honesty, this is a mostly hypothetical question, because factory suspension designs are engineered to work with factory spring lengths - which means generally, about 10" of travel maximum.

Also, suspension designs that generate the most articulation also tend to have very low roll stiffness, and that can create its own problems.

Steve.

I think the current rangie has about 14" rear and over 10" in the front. Crazy numbers for a bone stock vehicle with independent suspension all round.

Unfortunately though, for IFS/IRS travel and articulation are the same number, whereas for live axles travel (vertical) and articulation (diagonal) are very different.

I agree though the new RR is impressive.

Hummer H1 also generates very good travel for an independant design, although they rarely look like they are travelling well because of the high spring rates and huge width of the vehicle.


Steve.

So we are still finding that Rangie/Disco set up is pretty dam good in stock form.

Chuck a 2inch set of coils/longer shocks in it and take the swaybars off (is there any?) and its even better and pretty cheap great deal!

Surf looks pretty good too but front doesnt seem that great.

Any more ideas on Vitara Rear??

Gwagensteve wrote:Unfortunately though, for IFS/IRS travel and articulation are the same number, whereas for live axles travel (vertical) and articulation (diagonal) are very different.


Steve.

Can you expand / explain the above for the manetally challenged (me this early in the morn)

Thanx
Paul

By the way any particular year/model Vitara or are they all the same From about 89's to 00' ish

Travel for an IFS design is measured at the wheel.
Travel for a live axle design is measured at the bumpstop.
For an IFS design, if the suspension cycles straight up and down, the wheel travel and movement at the bumpstop are the same.

However, if the suspension articulates, the axle pivots off the compressed side bumpstop, therefore the wheel can move though a much larger range than the travel at the bumpstop implies.

I'm not explaining myself well. Does that make sense?

Steve

Remydog05 wrote:By the way any particular year/model Vitara or are they all the same From about 89's to 00' ish

Vitaras are an OK design, but don't get too excited by them. They have fairly short travel, very short arms, and the rear A arm design bottoms out if longer shocks are used.

Steve.

Gwagensteve wrote: Hummer H1 also generates very good travel for an independant design, although they rarely look like they are travelling well because of the high spring rates and huge width of the vehicle.


Steve.

I have photos of an H1 picking up wheels in a ditch that a suzuki vitara just walked through.
There seems to be a huge difference in ride height with H1's. Maybe it's just the load some carry but they look to only have about 5" on each corner.

They have at least 10", however, they're sprung for 10,000lb GVM or 12500 GVM and civillian hummers are rarely driven at anything like that heavy.

You are also right about the ride heights - compare the ride height of a soft top civillian hummer and an up-armoured hardtop, and there will be easily 5" in it. up-armoured HMMWV's are right on the 12500lb GVM of the heavy hummer variant, whereas civillian soft tops are surprisinglt light - lighter than a current high-spec 200 series lanscruiser from memory.

To get a good idea of their real world travel you need to watch video of them working. They rarely do anyhting impressive until they are at speed.

That's another facet of IFS/IRS- the lack of any sort of pivoting action like a live axle means that each corners spring rate is effectively "fixed" whereas on articulation with a live axle, lots of wheel movement might be achieved with very little spring compression, so the effective wheel rate is lower than with an IFS.

Land rover have attempted to overcome this with crosslinked airbags on their late model stuff.

Steve.

Yom wrote:

Struth wrote:

me3@neuralfibre.com wrote:

Struth wrote:Coil sprung Surfs and 4Runners also flex well in the rear

Say what!
I got 2" more travel in the rear of my surf by putting the Koni's from my Rally Gemini into it.

Gemini's have more rear travel than the surf did.....

Paul

Didn't take it 4wding much I take it, or it's shockies were wrong length, the 5 link rear is the only thing that saves a Surf when offroad because there is no movement in the IFS front, if the rear didn't flex well you would give up on Surfs the first time you went over a bump more than 300mm tall.

Here's a stock surf:
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa35 ... ture97.jpg

Here's a surf with 2" lift and LC80 shocks in rear (no swaybar)
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa35 ... 008200.jpg

And here's a surf with LC80 springs and very long shocks (i dont have a better picture, but it has some pretty good flex available...and it needs all the help it can get).
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa35 ... 008169.jpg

I realise I started getting carried awya with the photobucket editing tools, but meh who cares. You can see the axle relative to the body.

What the pics don't show is how short the surf's trailing arms are and how much rear steer there is when its fully flexed up. Its not unlike a patrol rear in that respect.

Yes you went operboard with the swirls.

Personally I dont think Surfs with LC80 setups flex as well as surfs with a simple 3" quality spring lift. The LC 80 springs don't compress near enougth sometimes.

Cheers

Gwagensteve wrote:Travel for an IFS design is measured at the wheel.
Travel for a live axle design is measured at the bumpstop.
For an IFS design, if the suspension cycles straight up and down, the wheel travel and movement at the bumpstop are the same.

However, if the suspension articulates, the axle pivots off the compressed side bumpstop, therefore the wheel can move though a much larger range than the travel at the bumpstop implies.

I'm not explaining myself well. Does that make sense?

Steve

Explanation is fine. There was a rover guy who built that 6 wheeler and a bunch of other stuff who used this principle for osme of his stuff. Keep the springs in toward the centre of the axle type deal, rather than out at the wheels.

Thank you
Paul

That was Bill Larman - used to be Daddylonglegs on here.

all live axle designs provide some amount of leverage.

With suzukis (my speciality) we inboard springs and bumpstops to increase this effect. Adding track width also adds articulation at the wheel for a fixed amount of vertical travel.

Steve.