Outer Limits 4x4 Board

just would like to know what is needed to supercharge a vit 1.6 efi? i am considering supercharging it at a later date but would like to know what is needed.
ive done a bit of searching and found peple use a sc14 or sc12. the sc12 is going to be smaller so easyer to fit but what do you guys think?

obviously a bracket will need to be made to hold the blower.

how does the standard ECU handel boost/how much boost?

what airbox will need to be used, i dont think there going to be enough room for the vit airbox and a supercharger.

from what i have searched its pritty much bolt it on and go? i dont want to need to lower compression ratio or get a new ecu though might consider a remap/tune if the price is right.

i would say it is far from bolt in and go but it is reasonably simple.
how many k's has your motor done and why do you want the extra power vitaras have plenty enough power for beach 4x4ing

Its not a good start if you are asking what sort of air box is used. Do a lot of research on other forums as what is needed to be done to a vit efi is similar on a lot of other 4 cylinder engines. Its certantly not as simple as bolt it on and away you go. Some factory computers wont work with boost as they run a map sensor not suitable for positive pressure. The factory computer would work with a supercharger, but will need to run a piggy back or something similar and will need to be tuned carefully as lean mixtures are nasty. You want to have a decent condition engine to start with, no point in using something with low compression that is worn. It could be done if you know what you are doing.

i was thinking about this the other day,
i run a supercharger on my map sensored Jimny motor,For the Supercharger to work properly, the excess air must be redirected away from the intake when its shut(chargers boost constantly) I run a plumb back BOV back into intake side of the charger.

Now on your motor the air flow meter(AFM) will be before or after the charger which means it will be reading that a lot of air in going into the engine when it actually wont be, meaning that there will be excess fuel dumped into the system. Im not sure if the 4agze runs a AFM or MAP but could be worthwhile looking into how they do it. Im sure it runs MAP.

If my theory is off, please someone reinform me.

the early version on the 4agze was AFM (in the AW11) and some scarce examples in AE92. AE92 mostly was MAP and all AE101 gze's were MAP.

you can run the AFM on the suction side of the SC12 if you run a bypass valve (4agze had these standard) which recirculates the air back to the intake post AFM but pre- supercharger.

is the baleno a map?

is there a way to convert from air flow to MAP?

by plumbing the map in front of the charger and bov you would always get a negative pressure on the sensor. still think in the long run just`changing the map and ecu to boost friend;y aftermarket options is a better option

you can make a maf bigger, few articles on autospeed.
dont know if there is a maf -> mAP CONVERTOR but it seems like something that would be out there

i think you can get positive reading map sensors. still need to tune it

You can get map sensors that will read positive pressure. A 2 bar or 3 Bar map will read positive. 1 bar map will only read vacuum. Putting the map sensor infront of the turbo is useless. The ECU uses the map sensor to measure engine load (manifold vacum). If you have it anywhere else but after the throttle body, it will never read a correct vacuum, then the motor will run like a bag of sh*t, or not run at all. To make this work properly and correctly i new ECU is pretty much a must. The compression of a stock Vit motor will limit the boost level and ultimatley the power level. Your timing will also have to be retarded too to avoid detonation, which may make the engine less responsive. How much more power do you need? The conversion isn't the hardest job in the world, but it is not bolt on.


Layto....

lay80n wrote:You can get map sensors that will read positive pressure. A 2 bar or 3 Bar map will read positive. 1 bar map will only read vacuum. Putting the map sensor infront of the turbo is useless. The ECU uses the map sensor to measure engine load (manifold vacum). If you have it anywhere else but after the throttle body, it will never read a correct vacuum, then the motor will run like a bag of sh*t, or not run at all. To make this work properly and correctly i new ECU is pretty much a must. The compression of a stock Vit motor will limit the boost level and ultimatley the power level. Your timing will also have to be retarded too to avoid detonation, which may make the engine less responsive. How much more power do you need? The conversion isn't the hardest job in the world, but it is not bolt on.


Layto....

be honest i dont realy need more power. just though it would be nicer to have that extra power when needed.

so basicly a new programable ECU will be needed and retarted timing?

a while ago i looked info programable ecu but i couldnt find any. must not be looking in the right places

megasqirt ecu

brendan_h wrote:

lay80n wrote:You can get map sensors that will read positive pressure. A 2 bar or 3 Bar map will read positive. 1 bar map will only read vacuum. Putting the map sensor infront of the turbo is useless. The ECU uses the map sensor to measure engine load (manifold vacum). If you have it anywhere else but after the throttle body, it will never read a correct vacuum, then the motor will run like a bag of sh*t, or not run at all. To make this work properly and correctly i new ECU is pretty much a must. The compression of a stock Vit motor will limit the boost level and ultimatley the power level. Your timing will also have to be retarded too to avoid detonation, which may make the engine less responsive. How much more power do you need? The conversion isn't the hardest job in the world, but it is not bolt on.


Layto....

be honest i dont realy need more power. just though it would be nicer to have that extra power when needed.

so basicly a new programable ECU will be needed and retarted timing?

a while ago i looked info programable ecu but i couldnt find any. must not be looking in the right places

The new ECU will need to be tuned (referably on a dyno). Depending on what ECU you use, it will control either fueling, or both fueling and ignition. The tuner will set these parameters. You can just chuck a charger on a standard car and possbily retard the timing a bit, but you wont be getting a great result. Try reading 00ZOOK (Steve) build, he has turbocharged a vit motor. Running fair bit of custom work and a haltech computer. This might give you an idea of what you are looking at. Obviously he has had different exhaust work done to suit a turbo etc, but the principal of making a vit motor accept positive manifold pressure without going pop is still there.

Layto....

lay80n wrote:

brendan_h wrote:

lay80n wrote:You can get map sensors that will read positive pressure. A 2 bar or 3 Bar map will read positive. 1 bar map will only read vacuum. Putting the map sensor infront of the turbo is useless. The ECU uses the map sensor to measure engine load (manifold vacum). If you have it anywhere else but after the throttle body, it will never read a correct vacuum, then the motor will run like a bag of sh*t, or not run at all. To make this work properly and correctly i new ECU is pretty much a must. The compression of a stock Vit motor will limit the boost level and ultimatley the power level. Your timing will also have to be retarded too to avoid detonation, which may make the engine less responsive. How much more power do you need? The conversion isn't the hardest job in the world, but it is not bolt on.


Layto....

be honest i dont realy need more power. just though it would be nicer to have that extra power when needed.

so basicly a new programable ECU will be needed and retarted timing?

a while ago i looked info programable ecu but i couldnt find any. must not be looking in the right places

The new ECU will need to be tuned (referably on a dyno). Depending on what ECU you use, it will control either fueling, or both fueling and ignition. The tuner will set these parameters. You can just chuck a charger on a standard car and possbily retard the timing a bit, but you wont be getting a great result. Try reading 00ZOOK (Steve) build, he has turbocharged a vit motor. Running fair bit of custom work and a haltech computer. This might give you an idea of what you are looking at. Obviously he has had different exhaust work done to suit a turbo etc, but the principal of making a vit motor accept positive manifold pressure without going pop is still there.

Layto....

basicly thats what i would like to know. mounting the blower should be fine its just getting the engine to run with the blower. so turbo or blower still basicly the same on getting it to work
any ider on what i would cost to get it dyno tuned.
what am i looking for in an aftermarket ecu? what makes the ECU hate boost?
thanks

your right about the throttl thing lay i ow feel extremley silly for mentioning it

if you run a map sensor, you need to have a variable throttle position sensor also, or it would not work. A few things make a standard computer not work with boost.

the standard ecu is quite simple and not up to the task, i know they tune gti swift ecu's right up to 250kw, but they need to be tuned in real time and its a pretty specialized deal.
I would go for a EMS stinger ecu, they are cheap and i have used them on my turbo cars without fault. Stay away from the Wolf brand ecu at least in w.a. no one wants to tune them.

It is hard to say how much it will cost for a tune but rough guide would be $600 to a $1000. But the thing other than the tune, ecu, supercharger and material cost will be the cost sorting out all your signal wires i.e. crank angle, tps, temp and airflow because as far as I know there are no plug and play kits for a g16b, therefore to ensure you are getting the right signal to the computer the job of wiring signal wires should be left to a tuning shop or someone who knows that practical ecu well and has a tuning program and cable.
Not trying to put you off this conversion, these are just some of the obstacles you have to deal with when using aftermarket computers.
Also if you a chasing a good make of ecu something like hailtec, microtec or wolf are the easiest to setup and tune.

brendan_h wrote:

lay80n wrote:

brendan_h wrote:

lay80n wrote:You can get map sensors that will read positive pressure. A 2 bar or 3 Bar map will read positive. 1 bar map will only read vacuum. Putting the map sensor infront of the turbo is useless. The ECU uses the map sensor to measure engine load (manifold vacum). If you have it anywhere else but after the throttle body, it will never read a correct vacuum, then the motor will run like a bag of sh*t, or not run at all. To make this work properly and correctly i new ECU is pretty much a must. The compression of a stock Vit motor will limit the boost level and ultimatley the power level. Your timing will also have to be retarded too to avoid detonation, which may make the engine less responsive. How much more power do you need? The conversion isn't the hardest job in the world, but it is not bolt on.


Layto....

be honest i dont realy need more power. just though it would be nicer to have that extra power when needed.

so basicly a new programable ECU will be needed and retarted timing?

a while ago i looked info programable ecu but i couldnt find any. must not be looking in the right places

The new ECU will need to be tuned (referably on a dyno). Depending on what ECU you use, it will control either fueling, or both fueling and ignition. The tuner will set these parameters. You can just chuck a charger on a standard car and possbily retard the timing a bit, but you wont be getting a great result. Try reading 00ZOOK (Steve) build, he has turbocharged a vit motor. Running fair bit of custom work and a haltech computer. This might give you an idea of what you are looking at. Obviously he has had different exhaust work done to suit a turbo etc, but the principal of making a vit motor accept positive manifold pressure without going pop is still there.

Layto....

basicly thats what i would like to know. mounting the blower should be fine its just getting the engine to run with the blower. so turbo or blower still basicly the same on getting it to work
any ider on what i would cost to get it dyno tuned.
what am i looking for in an aftermarket ecu? what makes the ECU hate boost?
thanks

Let's just say i hope you've got DEEP pockets, there's no cheep way around forced induction !!!.

Firstly the Std vitara ecu will run with boost BUT!! the mapping isnt there for the extra fueling and timing retartation needed wilst comming onto boost, so a aftermarket ecu is a must, when shopping for a ecu try to stick to the known name brands to safe headace's down the trach (remember what you saved on that cheap ass ecu might cost you twice as much to get it setup and tuned on the dyno!!)
Also with the aftermarket ecu you can also use it to control the supercharger on and off in relation to throttle position and rpm

The Std injectors pretty much runout after a little power increase, they only flow 175cc's i went with the Nissan RB20 injectors out of the skyline as they flow approx from memory 320cc, you will need to play around with o-rings to get them to fit the factory fuel rail and since you've done that you really should upgrade the factory fuel pump (if your running the vitara efi tank that is)

there is aftermarket pauter rods available, but as far as i'm aware you have to get forged pistons custom made from either CP or JR.

Have a read of my build thread to give you an idea of what your in for

I used a Eaton M45 out of a Mercedes C230 Kompressor, Apexi SAFC II, bigger injectors, BEGI as fuel regulator and Stck ECU.

Here is my engine:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachme ... 1166230429

and the building post

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthre ... hlight=m45

As a small aside, what would be the implications on engine management when un-naturally aspirating a J20A? What do the stock injectors flow? Would they need an upgrade?

It's not a topic thats ever been covered yet I've run across forged pistons and pauter rods for j20a's while trawling the web.

Also I wrote this in Google chrome - Its got a built in spell checker! How cool is that.

just looking around the net for some stuff for my zook and i came across this

http://www.suzisport.com/shop/

SuperCharger Kit (EFI) A$2,600.00

This is bolt on HP , what a great way to give your EFI vitara some extra boot
Kit includes , Supercharger(used) , brackets, pulley etc ,new programable computer , instructions

seems to be alright but would still need the plumbing for the blower and a tune?

brendan_h wrote: any ider on what i would cost to get it dyno tuned.
what am i looking for in an aftermarket ecu? what makes the ECU hate boost?
thanks

Re-asking this question sort of.
What is a suitable aftermarket ECU for the G16 motors?
Does it make a difference if it has a dizzy or coil pack ignition?
My engine does not have a crank angle sensor, has one on cam instead, is this a problem for these aftermarket jobs?
I personally dont want one to run boost or anything, I might need one to run my engine. fullstop.
I'm guessing ~$1200 is about right for the cost?

Sorry for being slightly off original topic.

The best aftermarket ecu depends on what you can get tuned locally.
for Aussies, the 2 most common quality solutions are Microtech or Adaptronic.

for either of these, you're looking at around $2000 for supply, install and tune of the ecu.

The cheaper solutions such as megasquirt, wolf etc are generally accepted as being inferior.

No ECU "hates" boost. However you need to ensure you have suitable features to work with forced induction. ie: The ecu needs to be able to control both fuel and ignition, and it should run a MAP sensor as opposed to an Air Flow Meter.


I run an Adaptronic in my sierra. G16 bottom end, swift GTI head, with a SC14 supercharger. In the past I have used Microtech, Haltech and Autronic ECU's. However I went with the adaptronic due to it's popularity with the swift GTI crowd.

Dizzy or coilpack ignition is not a problem, and both configurations will be suitable. Discuss this with your tuner prior to the install and he can recommend the best way to go.

Lack of a crank angle sensor is not a problem. If you have a Cam Angle Sensor to tell the ecu when cylinder 1 is at TDC, the ECU can use this for triggering ignition. Many cars (Nissan Pulsar/SR20, Hyundai Excel/4GEK) use this setup.

mnemonix wrote:The best aftermarket ecu depends on what you can get tuned locally.
for Aussies, the 2 most common quality solutions are Microtech or Adaptronic.

for either of these, you're looking at around $2000 for supply, install and tune of the ecu.

The cheaper solutions such as megasquirt, wolf etc are generally accepted as being inferior.

No ECU "hates" boost. However you need to ensure you have suitable features to work with forced induction. ie: The ecu needs to be able to control both fuel and ignition, and it should run a MAP sensor as opposed to an Air Flow Meter.


I run an Adaptronic in my sierra. G16 bottom end, swift GTI head, with a SC14 supercharger. In the past I have used Microtech, Haltech and Autronic ECU's. However I went with the adaptronic due to it's popularity with the swift GTI crowd.

Dizzy or coilpack ignition is not a problem, and both configurations will be suitable. Discuss this with your tuner prior to the install and he can recommend the best way to go.

Lack of a crank angle sensor is not a problem. If you have a Cam Angle Sensor to tell the ecu when cylinder 1 is at TDC, the ECU can use this for triggering ignition. Many cars (Nissan Pulsar/SR20, Hyundai Excel/4GEK) use this setup.

Awesome
Thank you

So the best thing to do is speak to the tuner first, and see what suits them.