Outer Limits 4x4 Board

I have a engineered zuk on hilux diffs with 33, I spoke to the origanal engineer about getting 35s and was given the ok providing I made sure there was no interference with body/steering/suspension.
I did this then presented the vehicle to him, after a check over I was given the ok and the certificate will be ready in a week....that was around june last year and so after lots of calls by me and promises by him I went elsewhere.
This new engineer gave me alot more things to do to pass it which I did ending with the speed varifacation that I did today.
So heres the dilema in the few weeks since I spoke to the 2nd engineer the laws have changed to state anything over 2" bigger than standard CANNOT be passed without an abridged?? brake certificate.
Ive spoke to the powers that be in the rta and they confermed this and once the explained how complex and costly this test was (proply more than the tires) and that newer cruisers and patrols cant pass this test on 35s I now cant use my 35s.
Rant over now get back to your beers
Nik

Engineers can be real dousche bags cant they!
I've had to get 2 cars engineered and it was the biggest pain in the arse.
I'd rather just risk a defect these days, just dont give them a reason to pull you over and you will be ok.

Just out of curiosity, do engineers measure the tyres or just go by what the sidewall says? For tyres like Silverstones which say 35" on the sidewall but are a measured 33" tyre.

I reckon tyre manufacturers should make a 35" tyre which reads 32" on the sidewall!

/crap

Mike

mike_nofx wrote:Engineers can be real dousche bags cant they!
I've had to get 2 cars engineered and it was the biggest pain in the arse.
I'd rather just risk a defect these days, just dont give them a reason to pull you over and you will be ok.

Just out of curiosity, do engineers measure the tyres or just go by what the sidewall says? For tyres like Silverstones which say 35" on the sidewall but are a measured 33" tyre.

I reckon tyre manufacturers should make a 35" tyre which reads 32" on the sidewall!

/crap

Mike

Pretty sure they would go off the sidewall

NIK wrote:I have a engineered zuk on hilux diffs with 33, I spoke to the origanal engineer about getting 35s and was given the ok providing I made sure there was no interference with body/steering/suspension.
I did this then presented the vehicle to him, after a check over I was given the ok and the certificate will be ready in a week....that was around june last year and so after lots of calls by me and promises by him I went elsewhere.
This new engineer gave me alot more things to do to pass it which I did ending with the speed varifacation that I did today.
So heres the dilema in the few weeks since I spoke to the 2nd engineer the laws have changed to state anything over 2" bigger than standard CANNOT be passed without an abridged?? brake certificate.
Ive spoke to the powers that be in the rta and they confermed this and once the explained how complex and costly this test was (proply more than the tires) and that newer cruisers and patrols cant pass this test on 35s I now cant use my 35s.
Rant over now get back to your beers
Nik

Nik ,
Its not a great time for engineers, Big changes aparently.

Heard a rumour cars engineered by one perticuler engineer where getting spot checked , they just come to your house aparantly,


So whats the deal with the brake test ?

They go off the sidewall.
Ive heard a rumour about said engineer...
Apparently its a mini version of the test manufacturers use when designing a new car. I was told that actual test destroys the brakes so they leesen it so as to not damage your car (from rta)
They test front brakes only, rear only, non boosted and accelerate to 50km/h then lock up the brakes 10 times in a row (there may be more thats all he told me)
So its fairly involved and imagine going thru that a few times
Even though I have "bigger" brakes (hilux) hiluxs only had 31s so 33s is the limit unless I can pass the test.
And theres no one that can do it in newy area all sydney way.
Nik

Sound a bit out there , i don,t think they could lock the front brakes with standard wheels without the booster hooked up . know any gym junkys ?.

Then again it wouldn,t be impossible with right master cylinder and pads,

mike_nofx wrote:Engineers can be real dousche bags cant they!
I've had to get 2 cars engineered and it was the biggest pain in the arse.
I'd rather just risk a defect these days, just dont give them a reason to pull you over and you will be ok.

Just out of curiosity, do engineers measure the tyres or just go by what the sidewall says? For tyres like Silverstones which say 35" on the sidewall but are a measured 33" tyre.

I reckon tyre manufacturers should make a 35" tyre which reads 32" on the sidewall!

/crap

Mike

they go by sidewall, then actually measure the tyre, which ever is the largest they will go by. hate to say it, but i'm all for these kinds of tests.

Im all for a legal and safe car aswell but Im just frustrated that it was "approved" then changed before the engineer signed off on it.
Plus when they say newer cruisers and patrols cant pass makes you wonder..
Nik

In Victoria they go by the nominal O.D. listed for a given size in the Trye & Rim manual according to both VicRoads and my Engineer. The physical size is irrelevant as far as they are concerned. I know this because I tried posing all sorts of arguements with them both.

Dozoor wrote:So whats the deal with the brake test ?

When I spoke to several victorian engineers bout increasing GVM on GU Patrols, the brake test was quoted by most of them "allow $10,000".

You hire a race track, professional driver, their gear for the day.. they test. You pass, you pay. You fail, you start again and pay another $10,000 if you want to try again...

Bit of the write up here.
http://www.patrol4x4.com/forum/showthre ... hlight=gvm

Read the link; my thoughts, FWIW:

When I did my Paj I had some good conversations with the engineer (in SA - the third one I tried to deal with) - unless the requirements have changed significantly, I think somebody is trying to fob you off.

I had to "hire" a racetrack. $160, we were there for maybe two hours, that fee included one of the staff to come and observe the lane change test (I paid the track directly - no "markup" by the engineer, unless there was a kickback. )

The engineer is CAMS licensed, so he did the driving. Had all his own test equipment, which I undoubtedly paid for in his hourly rate.

I thought the brake test was ridiculously low-stress. I can't imagine any vehicle failing the repeated stops, but he assured me that many vehicles do have trouble.

The quoted axle weights sound ridiculously low too. Are you sure that figure isn't taking into account factory spring limitations? I was quoted 1600kg for my IFS - I don't believe a GU Patrol is rated lower.

I asked about uprating my GVM, to the LWB figure as a minimum, as I have LWB axles etc. He stated that he has to disassemble the axles, make measurements and perform calculations simply to demonstrate (to SA Transport) that he has done something to justify the larger number.

I imagine that any GVM upgrade will require heavier springs - it shouldn't be hard to calculate a new minimum spring rate.

With some research on part numbers for axles, bearings, etc it should be possible to identify how many different configurations should really need to be "tested". How many different sets of calculations need to be done?

Similarly, the brake tests performed on my vehicle wouldn't be difficult, or particularly dangerous, to try on a quiet stretch of road - certainly nothing illegal. Only the pedal pressure test requires anything resembling special equipment, so it should be possible to determine your chances of passing before you hire an engineer.

Unless there's now significantly more involved in the brake test (which is still performed at a race track, not in a test lab) I think you simply haven't found an engineer who's really interested in the job.

-Scott- wrote:I thought the brake test was ridiculously low-stress. I can't imagine any vehicle failing the repeated stops, but he assured me that many vehicles do have trouble..

When I had the GQ done, the bloke used a machine like they use for yearly pink slips in Shitney, and drove the car for 1/2 hour... Like you, I thought it was stress free.. he did swerve test while out.
Thus why I was confused when they wanted that much to do it to increase GVM (which 98% of GU's require!)

Did I mention this test is on a fully loaded car (thats what the engineer said)
I does seem very intensive so it it possible that im not being fobed of but discouraged from trying.
But Still its alot more $$ and messing around for a car 2nd car that barely gets driven and can already run 33s.
Nik

I spoke to an engineer last week about getting a mq engineered for SOA and 35" tyres.. basically told it was $4,000 for a fully laden swerve test plus some other little test.. his fee and racetrack hire etc.. and that it would almost certianly fail the first time so i would have to test it twice!!

I can understand the need to verify the safety of a vechicle.. but ive read about people that have had SOA engineered just by the engineer driving it?? at less than 1/4 of the cost! Has the legislation changed or are they all scared of being sued now??

I clearly can't justify spending that much just on engineering my whole budget for the project is like $5-6g.. Im not sure what the government are thinking? are they making it this hard so they can revenue raise from defect notices???

Craig

Thats my point,
I approached the appropriate (so I thought) people asked the question and was told yes, so after doing everything they asked they let ME down not getting there end done.
So I see a second person and jump through THERE different set of hoops ( more $ ) then the law changed to add WAY more $$.
Im all for safe and reliable vehicles I always make sure my brakes and steering are spot on but when I started this project there was no mention of the test for the tyres costing more than the tyres themselves.
Nik

SWBMQCraig wrote:
I clearly can't justify spending that much just on engineering my whole budget for the project is like $5-6g.. Im not sure what the government are thinking? are they making it this hard so they can revenue raise from defect notices???

Craig

They are making it that hard so that no one does it.

They don't care that a couple of thousand people, if that, in a population of 20 odd million want to drive cars that are actually capable on and off road.

Modifications means more paperwork and crap for them too, its easier if everyone just buys a new car every few years and keeps it stock. Means more $$ in sales taxes too.

And for the few (or probably many, they just won't admit it) that continue to drive "illegally" modified cars, well, the gov can make $$ out of the fines too so its a win win situation for them.

I'm in Victoria, so understand that my experience is based on vic.

I'll start by saying that not all engineers are experts in all areas. Some are all over horsepower, some happy with chassis work, some are super picky about seatbelts, or glass, or lighting or whatever.

Please understand what an engineer actually does.

He/She personally signs off that even though your car may no longer meet all the relevant ADR's, it is still safe.

That means safe if you sell it and someone buys it and puts their kids in it.

That means safe if your kid runs out in front of it in the rain. Not safe "if you know that it does that" or safe if it's empty, or whatever.

Basically, the car must adhere to the same basic minimum standard as any other car on the road, or every other car from its year.

That's a heavy responsibility, and I can't think of many cars I'd want do it for. (Even some stock cars - like a sierra!)

I understand that NIK, you have had a bad experience, but the ground is shifting all the time.

I know of a Sierra that was certed on sierra diffs with 33's and SPOA with a Z link in Vic. There's no way that's possible now. However, when that car was certed, ABS, and airbags were uncommon and stability control was unheard of- and in NSW an 80 series was certed with non speed rated 44's (yep, 44" tyres), but stock brakes and diffs.

The simple point is that as new cars get safer, the engineering rules will get tighter and builders will have to either A) move to older cars or B) get smarter.

50mm over the largest stock tyre for that axle is going to be the future I'm afraid, (or whatever you have already have certed) Is that a problem? Well, It's limiting, and it will make building a big car harder and more expensive, but also much safer.

Into the future, NSW probably has the most to loose as it seems to have had the most liberal engineering rules to date.

It's easy to say that's a bad thing, but that's only a narrow point of view. Can anyone seriously argue they want less safe cars on the roads?

NIK, I'm surprised you can get 35's certed under ANY curcumstances any more. I'd spend the money (because you might never be able to do it again) or shave your diffs and stick to 33's.

anyway, that's my 2C.

My sierra isn't certed but my next car will be (... or build a flatfender and I won't have to deal with any ADR's ) and I've done a couple of certed builds

Steve.

Thats the plan Steve
Btw Im in no way bagging engineers in general (well maybe 1 that deserved it and more) they are only following rules the 2nd guy was very helpful.
I wanted people to know of the changing laws.
Nik

i really should get the 285/75R16's on the lux engineered

Does anyone "in the know" know what's happening with that national strategy that's been "COMING SOON!!" for the past 2+ years? I thought that was (relatively) good news. Particularly from a Qld perspective!!

Someone (the ubiquitous someone) said that 35's would be good for GQ/GU's under this regime. Is this accurate?

bigbluemav wrote:Does anyone "in the know" know what's happening with that national strategy that's been "COMING SOON!!" for the past 2+ years? I thought that was (relatively) good news. Particularly from a Qld perspective!!

Someone (the ubiquitous someone) said that 35's would be good for GQ/GU's under this regime. Is this accurate?

Who knows. Nobody will until "IF" it comes in as to what will be in the final allowance...
although some engineers in Vic are going with draft version already..

bigbluemav wrote:Does anyone "in the know" know what's happening with that national strategy that's been "COMING SOON!!" for the past 2+ years? I thought that was (relatively) good news. Particularly from a Qld perspective!!

Someone (the ubiquitous someone) said that 35's would be good for GQ/GU's under this regime. Is this accurate?

they are alot further ahead than most people think.

bogged wrote: although some engineers in Vic are going with draft version already..

That's what we're working to and have been for a while.

Steve.

joeblow wrote:

bigbluemav wrote:Does anyone "in the know" know what's happening with that national strategy that's been "COMING SOON!!" for the past 2+ years? I thought that was (relatively) good news. Particularly from a Qld perspective!!

Someone (the ubiquitous someone) said that 35's would be good for GQ/GU's under this regime. Is this accurate?

they are alot further ahead than most people think.

Hi Joe

Aaaah WHO is alot further ahead??

joeblow wrote:

bigbluemav wrote:Does anyone "in the know" know what's happening with that national strategy that's been "COMING SOON!!" for the past 2+ years? I thought that was (relatively) good news. Particularly from a Qld perspective!!

Someone (the ubiquitous someone) said that 35's would be good for GQ/GU's under this regime. Is this accurate?

they are alot further ahead than most people think.

Hi Joe

Aaaah WHO is alot further ahead??

bigbluemav wrote:

joeblow wrote:

bigbluemav wrote:Does anyone "in the know" know what's happening with that national strategy that's been "COMING SOON!!" for the past 2+ years? I thought that was (relatively) good news. Particularly from a Qld perspective!!

Someone (the ubiquitous someone) said that 35's would be good for GQ/GU's under this regime. Is this accurate?

they are alot further ahead than most people think.

Hi Joe

Aaaah WHO is alot further ahead??

the team working on the ncop.

I just spoke with an engineer in bayswater that was talking about NCOP14 being legislation in a couple of weeks.. I think that cars that are currently engineered for lift/tyres will become very valuable! because no-one else will be able to do it from now onwards..

Craig

joeblow wrote:they are alot further ahead than most people think.

awesome, so it was released last year like planned, or Jan 1 or..

SWBMQCraig wrote:I just spoke with an engineer in bayswater that was talking about NCOP14 being legislation in a couple of weeks.. I think that cars that are currently engineered for lift/tyres will become very valuable! because no-one else will be able to do it from now onwards..

Craig

Maybe, but for us in Victoria, I don't think there's really that much of a change. Maybe some patrols that could have been engineered on 35's will now be certed on 34's.

Maybe some cars will be a but lower... probably not a bad thing IMHO.

What else is different?

I"m happy to agree that NSW are going to have a big fall. Having seen some NSW certed cars they make me laugh.

Steve.

If these rules are comming in and soon, i have a question for those a bit smarter than myself .

I have a Shorty Mav, that's been Engineered in VIC and NSW, but i only have the NSW report, so will these new rules affect me or am i worried about nothing.

There has been a lot done to the car

Hijack off

Chris