Outer Limits 4x4 Board

When my '98 2.7 is parked for a few days, then started, there is a high pitched rattle for a couple of seconds. Sounds awful, but is probably only the timing chains rattling until the oil pressure builds up in the tensioners, or not?? If so what is the cure, because it can't be good for anything.

Again, when parked for a few days, then started, it sometimes runs on 5 cylinders for up to a minute. This is accompanied by a ticking sound like a sticky hydraulic lifter. First thought was small coolant leak into the head where it is wetting a plug. Had this once in a Camry, but it also overheated when combustion gasses leaked into the cooling system when running, which is not happening this time. Second thought was a sticky lifter,.... are they hydraulic? Could a sticky one cause a mis-fire until it pumps up?
If so, is there a cure?
Third thought, I have not had a lot of experience with EFI injectors, so could it be a dicky one? What else might it be?

Sounds to me like hydraulic lifters, my commodore does it every morning for a few seconds. The miss can also be caused by the lifter sticking as they open the valves unsure on the fix though.

jesse

the miss could also be one of the coil pack "probes" letting the spark jump.

Thanks guys. I will check out the spark-jump idea, but the ticking sounds mechanical more than electrical sparking.

If the miss is just a lifter, I can live with that.

so what vehicle is your 98 2.7L out of?? might help with the answer..
i have a rattle in the engine ( 2003 GV 2.5L ) when i start it up after a few days rest , just needs to get the oil around the engine and timing chain and its sounds great again.

I take it you've got a H27A engine- I didn't think we got them back in 1998???

What viscosity and brand of oil are you using? A lot of people report various improvements with timing chain noise depending on the oil used. I've also seen a USA tech note reporting lifter noise and the cure being a prolonged highway drive at high revs.....

murcod wrote:I take it you've got a H27A engine- I didn't think we got them back in 1998???

What viscosity and brand of oil are you using? A lot of people report various improvements with timing chain noise depending on the oil used. I've also seen a USA tech note reporting lifter noise and the cure being a prolonged highway drive at high revs.....

Engine is H27A, available from 04/98 I believe.

No idea what oil, it is what was in it when I got it, freshly serviced.
I was planning to use 5/30 at the change to see if that helped.
The highway drive....my lifters are not normally noisy, only one makes a noise for up to a minute on start-up after standing. It seems to clear up then and is fine. It is also fine if started every day.
I'll give it a go anyway.
I am reluctant to flush the engine because of the possibility of freeing up particles that may block small capillaries, but was hoping that using a light grade like 5/30 might help.

I spent some time Googling for any info on this problem and possible oil viscosity cures, but to no avail. I did come across an old thread where you cured the start-up-spike to 2000rpm though. Are you still using it, and what do you think about a switch to bypass the temp sensor for cool starts? It looks also from that thread that I should be looking at 10/40 not 5/30 ??

1- ENGINE OIL FLUSH for half an hour.
2-new filter and castrol magnatec or synthetic.
3-1 litre of morreys oil stabiliser.

PhillT wrote: I did come across an old thread where you cured the start-up-spike to 2000rpm though. Are you still using it, and what do you think about a switch to bypass the temp sensor for cool starts? It looks also from that thread that I should be looking at 10/40 not 5/30 ??

Yes, I'm still running that set up and am very happy with the cold start not revving it's tits off! It's not the temp sensor that's the cause of it- it's a mechanical air bypass valve that opens when the coolant is cold. Hence the way I had to block the air path.

I get around 0.5 second "rattle" at startup from the timing chain. That's using Motul Turbolight 10W40. I was using Helix Ultra 5W40, but reckon the Motul is better. The 5W30 oil is only rated up to around 30 (or 35?) degrees in my owners manual- hence why I've gone for the 10W40. I also don't experience morning starts below 5 degrees (rarely), so the higher 10W rating is fine.

I've also converted it to twin electric thermofans - so any startup rattle is VERY evident.

BTW are you sure you haven't got a H25A 2.5l V6? The first 2.7l version sold in Aus was the XL-7 and they were first sold in 2001? It's "neither here nor there" with the issues you've got because they are both basically the same engine and suffer the same problems.

yes im very interested in this 98 2.7L, do you have an XL7 or GV???

It may jjust be a lifter issue and the 2.0 J20A's are particularly prone to it but the V6 can also suffer the same problem. The timing chain tensioner problem doesn't tend to come and go but a synthetic 5W/30 is the way to go anyway and in fact has been mentioned in Mazda TSB's too (same base engine design). Also replace the oil filter at each oil change.

I agree that using an engine flush is not always ideal for the reason stated but if the engine is relatively low kms and has had regular oil changes it shouldn't be a problem. That generally occurs in much older engines that haven't been maintained.

I think the Morey's suggestion that Joe mentioned came from a Suzuki workshop so may have some validity. I might be wrong but Joe should be able to confirm this. When I got around to trying it on my V6 it was too late.

murcod wrote:
Yes, I'm still running that set up and am very happy with the cold start not revving it's tits off! It's not the temp sensor that's the cause of it- it's a mechanical air bypass valve that opens when the coolant is cold. Hence the way I had to block the air path.

OK, I get it. How critical is the thickness of the material? What is the ideal thickness? Would poly-carbonate sheeting take the 100+ deg. C for extended periods? This is something I need to do. I cringe every time I start it cold.

murcod wrote: I get around 0.5 second "rattle" at startup from the timing chain. That's using Motul Turbolight 10W40. I was using Helix Ultra 5W40, but reckon the Motul is better. The 5W30 oil is only rated up to around 30 (or 35?) degrees in my owners manual- hence why I've gone for the 10W40. I also don't experience morning starts below 5 degrees (rarely), so the higher 10W rating is fine.

Like you, I would rarely start in less than 5Deg. but 30+ is not so rare.
I'll try the 10/40 next change

murcod wrote: BTW are you sure you haven't got a H25A 2.5l V6? The first 2.7l version sold in Aus was the XL-7 and they were first sold in 2001? It's "neither here nor there" with the issues you've got because they are both basically the same engine and suffer the same problems.

My mistake. I was reading a heap of stuff about the H27 prior to writing the post, and had it on the brain. Of course it is H25. (Note Fordy1)

cj wrote: It may jjust be a lifter issue and the 2.0 J20A's are particularly prone to it but the V6 can also suffer the same problem. The timing chain tensioner problem doesn't tend to come and go but a synthetic 5W/30 is the way to go anyway and in fact has been mentioned in Mazda TSB's too (same base engine design). Also replace the oil filter at each oil change.

If the 10/40 doesn't help, then I'll try the 5/30, although it seems a bit light for summer use (over 30deg.) it should be of for winter use.
I never change oil without a new filter.

cj wrote: I agree that using an engine flush is not always ideal for the reason stated but if the engine is relatively low kms and has had regular oil changes it shouldn't be a problem. That generally occurs in much older engines that haven't been maintained.

Therein lies the problem. I have no idea how well it was serviced. It has now done 154,000Km, and there is some carbon build-up on the inside of the oil filler cap, although not severe, therefore the reluctance to flush. If i do changes at 5,000kms in future, I am hoping that the carbon will eventually reduce.

cj wrote: I think the Morey's suggestion that Joe mentioned came from a Suzuki workshop so may have some validity. I might be wrong but Joe should be able to confirm this. When I got around to trying it on my V6 it was too late.

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Moreys much the same as STP in that it is an oil viscosity raiser? You can achieve the same thing by using heavier oil? This vehicle is using a bit more oil than I would like, around a litre per 5,000km, so I am using MBL8 which has fixed the oil burning problem on three other vehicles I have owned, but takes at least two or three oil changes with treatment at each change to take full effect. I look forward to Joes input on the Moreys.

cj is right, this came from a well known zook mechanic who is now retired. what it does is stabilise the oil and gives it the same consistancy and is less likely to make your oil turn into carbon deposits, which is the enemy of timing chain tensioners.

I haven't had any problems with the material I used. The dimensions are very critical as you need to basically block off all of the cold start air bypass valve.

Here's some more info on what I did. http://www.suzuki-forums.com/1g-2001-20 ... spike.html

(PS: just ignore the idiot who decided to start an oil/ engine wear debate in the middle of the thread!?! )

Just to add my 2 cents worth.
When I had my 1999 V6 Grand, it to had the rattle at start up.
Yes it was the valve tappets. It only lasted for a few seconds or so while the oil was pumped to the top of the engine.

From what I have heard, this is normal for the V6 GV's. Sometimes, I pumped the accelerator slightly and the rattle stopped.

The oil I always used was 15/40..

Cheers murcod. I'll track down some 6mm material & a gasket asap.

NFI wrote:Just to add my 2 cents worth.
When I had my 1999 V6 Grand, it to had the rattle at start up.
Yes it was the valve tappets. It only lasted for a few seconds or so while the oil was pumped to the top of the engine.

From what I have heard, this is normal for the V6 GV's. Sometimes, I pumped the accelerator slightly and the rattle stopped.

The oil I always used was 15/40..

15/40 is probably a bit heavy for the climate here. I'll try the 5.30 & then 10/40, if no good then 15/40 as it will be summer again by then.

Here are a couple of oil viscosity vs temp charts:

from my 2004 XL-7 handbook



and from a Suzuki Workshop manual for the GV / XL-7 around 2002 vintage and USA origin (they made their own GV's )




As you can see even 10W40 oil is rated fine down to -20 deg C .... and up to 40 + <- depending on what chart you check.

Thanks David.
The coldest it has ever been since I moved here was one morning 2007, when it got down to minus 5C. The hottest was about 39C.

I found a table here:- http://www.volvoclub.org.uk/engine_oil_history.shtml

so for here:- Winter, -5C to +30C = 25W30
Summer, +12 to +40C = 30W40

I am now wondering if in fact it would be a bad idea to use a low temp (5W, 10W, 15W) oil in these temps because it would be too thin for good protection in cold starts at an average of +5C in winter (0C is rare) and +15C starts during summer?

I think the point to remember is newer engines are designed to run on thinner oils- and it's also written in the owner's handbook "For temps above -20deg C we highly recommend you use SAE 5W30"

The main reason I changed to 10W40 was because
1. it rarely ever gets to 0C (or less) where I live
2. It does regularly get to over 40C in summer

I think it might be a case of experimenting and seeing what works for you. I've found the Motul 10W40 better for cold engine noise compared to Shell Helix Ultra 5W40- but you might find something else that works better. My engine is relatively "young" having only covered 63000km too.

Most Suzuki mechs recommend thinner oils as being important for timing chain tensioner life- I'd hesitate to use 25W30 or 30W40 for that reason.

I take your point. Because of the issues with the timing chain tensioner, Suzuki are recommending an oil which is helping to overcome their design issues, not the ideal oil based on local climate (temps).

All I need to do is find a non synthetic 5W30 or 5W40 at a price that makes it economical to change the oil every 5,000Km, and pray that I can avoid the problem. At 155,000Km I am probably due for this to happen, unless a previous owner has had it replaced before I got it.

cj wrote: but a synthetic 5W/30 is the way to go anyway and in fact has been mentioned in Mazda TSB's too (same base engine design).

Do it right, you're halfway there