Outer Limits 4x4 Board

G’day

I’m looking at doing some experimenting soon doing a turbo conversion to a straight gas vehicle. Most people have said a turbo conversion will normally cost 2-3k if done yourself. I fail to see the high costs when doing it yourself. Other than the turbo itself I cant see much else required for small boost of around 8psi. I know 8psi isn’t much but this is just for fun.

I am planning to use a power steering pump for oil and tapping into the water-cooling hoses for water. All pipe work and manifolds would be created by myself. Am I missing something serious here?

I've done some searching but haven’t found the info im after.
Cheers, look forward to your comments

First off, you dont need the power steer pump for oil, you use the engine oil feed to supply youre turbo.

You are correct that you can get away with it cheap if you do everything yourself, but tuning is the problem. I dont know how you would mod the gas system to cope, maybe some kind of boost compensator, you would have to ask an expert on that one.

Do yourself a favor, and buy a book on turbocharging. Maximum Boost by Corky Bell is a good one, theres also a more up to date book called Street Turbocharging by Mark Warner. Buy one of them and give it a read.

You find the high price is for a new turbo or a 2nd hand one and then rebuilt.

If you use the power steering oil it's be pressurized oil in a small loop.

A turbo idles around 40,000RPM and may spin up to 200,000+RPM at full ball, so that oil will get hot and quick.

Though you need to size it properly for the job at hand.

Work out how much HP you want as you need to get an idea of the sort of air flow your after/require.

like 400HP on a motor will need around 44pounds per min of airflow for example

Biggest costs are turbo, manifold and oil/water lines. This should answer your question though (albeit a TD42):

Some Legend wrote:Ok. Thought i'd do a quick list of parts costings while i'm at it.

Pyro Kit: $100
Manifold: $360
T3 Turbo: $150
Gaskets: $70
SpeedFlow Kit: $420
Mandrel bends: $120 (6 bends, one of which i destroyed )
Studs/Nuts: $80 (genuine Nissan studs were $$$)
Dump plate: $FREE (spare steel)
Straight pipe: $FREE (i have plenty of spare 2.5" & 3" pipe)
Silicon Pipes: $140
ZD30 Airbox: $350
Flexi Pipe: $FREE
3" bellows: $100
Heat wrap: $90

TOTAL: $1980

Things other people could save money on (if you're super-tight):

Minus $100 for pyro
Minus $90 for heatwrap
Minus $350 for ZD30 airbox (re-use old one, or get a second hand unit for $200)
Minus $80 for nuts/studs
Use different oil/water lines: Minus $300
Minus $100 for exhaust bellows

TOTAL FOR "POVO PACK" CONVERSION: $960.

Obviously i didn't have to fork out for any labour here, nor did it cost me anything for fabrication. I wanted this conversion to be as cheap as possible without skimping on the important things that most backyard/budget build dont include, but it just shows where all of the money goes!!

It depends on what motor you have got.

A diesel, is generally more expensive than a petrol, due to needing the pump and injectors done.

A petrol motor is cheap as chip's, on an RB30, if you can't run 8 pound for 1500 you are not looking hard enough, as you can buy the complete setup, of a VLT for a grand if you look hard enough, bolt it on, then a couple of hundred on the dyno and you're away.

I can't see why a 4.2 petrol would be much more expensive.

Nothings cheap unless you do it your self, and know what your doing.

Id class diesel petrol similar in costs, an efi petrol motor needs more than a turbo and manifold to run reliably. A dyno tune is pointless on a non-programmable ecu as 99% of cars would be, and as the vlt is,

Powersteering as has been said is a disaster waiting to happen. A cheap conversion just cost a new turbo and a cooked powersteering pump



Injectors (for petrol motors)
Fuel pump (diesel or petrol)
Turbo
manifold
Turbo lines
Dump pipe
Exhaust
Intercooling? (not needed for 8 but would be good)
Ecu ( most stock ecu's will run like sh*t with positive pressure) (petrol)
Boostguage / pyro
Clutch ( even small boost levels will add significant torque to the drivetrain)
It would come in around the 2-3k if YOU DID'NT need the ecu.

well the power steering idea is something i've never heard of and with good reason, the cost is high if its done right...if you slap it together using second hand half frucked parts and use an elcheapo gas ring or impco style mixer you will soon see why there's a cheap way and the right way to do it.

if you wanna do it right, and not blow head gaskets every drive, and have a reliable set up it will cost ya $.
Worth it in the end though

B.D.R wrote: A diesel, is generally more expensive than a petrol, due to needing the pump and injectors done.

I disagree. IME most diesels have enough extra capacity in the injector pump and injectors for the fuelling to be increased easily (for free - apart from dyno costs if you use one).

Fuel pump and injector mods are usually only needed if you are boosting by huge amounts or if you want to fit an aneroid to reduce off-boost smoke.

Cheers for your comments, big thanks to coxy321 for the job costing list. Ill definately research this more and make some cad drawings, should be a good project.

Cheers

bikeboy37 wrote:Cheers for your comments, big thanks to coxy321 for the job costing list. Ill definately research this more and make some cad drawings, should be a good project.

Cheers

CAD for what? there is step by step instructions on how to do a setup, hardly need to re invent the wheel.

Don't even think about the power steering oil setup. Tap the oil feed from the engine gallery (eg a T where the pressure sender screws in) and a larger diameter drain back to the side of the sump.

LPG systems have a horsepower rating. The converters are limited by how much liquid that can vapourise. This is affected by coolant temp and you should generally be running a 195F thermostat to maximise it. Mixers are limited by their ability to deliver air and fuel. In part, this is a CFM rating for the airflow but some will lean out at the top end as they can get the air through but can't get the matching volume of gas through.

Many installers use systems too small for the engine even in standard form, assuming that you'll "switch to petrol for towing, etc." It's an appalling attitude but it's out there. The same installers will be very negative about straight gas because it won't perform...

In virtually all LPG systems, if you put a balance pipe between the air pressure immediately up stream of the mixer and the "atmospheric" or "balance" port on the convertor, the boost is fully compensated for whether you're running blow through or draw through. Personally, I'd recommend an Impco mixer with a OHG X1 or copy convertor (Aussie B2, Nolff, Elko and all copies) unless you really want to be brave and run an OHG X450 mixer like I do... The X450 is temperamental unless set up correctly and is now hard to get.

It should go without saying that LPG systems should have the filter fed cold air from outside the engine bay and that the inlet manifold should be kept as cool as possible, whether there is a turbo or not.

Firstly... RESEARCH.. your post shows an obvious lack of knowledge of the project you are about to undertake.
Your power steering pump will produce twice as much oil pressure as you need and will blow the seal out of the turbo in a jiffy... Don't do it.
LPG systems work on the vacuum created by the engine to act on a diapragm or the airflow of the engine passing a venturi to create a vacumm. If you apply a positive pressure to most gas mixers/convertors it will stop the gas flow and stall the engine.. You know your trying to save a few bucks on a resonibly technical job.. it's sort of like saying you should build your own house cos it's only nailing a few bits of wood together.
Good luck with the project.. Ask lots of questions and get it right first time
Dan

Cheers for your comments.

Basicly this project is something between myself, a mate (aerospace engineer) and another mate (mechanic / gas installer). What we are intending to do is actualy just the beginning of a much larger project. Essentialy we are looking to create turbo kits for certain models (most likely not aimed at australia due to stricter laws) that are almost all bolt on / plug in with as little tampering to the engine eg adding oil lines ect. The system is aimed at people who really only want a turbo for wank factor, hence such low boost. The idea came to mind when noticing how much people spend on rims and sound systems, plastics and nos drinks.

The gas system on my car should be no dramas, my mate and i will tune it.

Power steering pumps are quite common for people who turn turbos into gas tubine engines, which i made a few years back. basicly all you have is an electric motor running the power steering pump. With a few extra goodies and sensors you can control the speed and pressure via a laptop. I will eventually create a fully contained pump, motor and control unit with an external oil cooler. This just helps to keep it as simple as possible for a person to install/remove.

The cad drawings are required so i can cut out the parts on cnc mills, plasmas, pipe benders that i have access to at anytime.

I am doing it to a carby straight gas firstly just to remove other hurdles such as ecus ect. Plus I like the sound for wank factor and i do only 8000kms a year in my cruiser. I really dont care if my engine carks it as im going to chuck in a turbo diesel within a year. Once we have the system successful on my car then the next stage will be on an rb30 wreck i have here in which i will try to create my own ecu unit from scratch with a laptop interface.

Look usually its not me who picks on people like you I leave that for the forum nazis, but you have no idea about the basics, plus your contradicting yourself badly as to why you want to do it, i don't even want to get into all the other crap you don't know, and my only question is are you 16 do u actually own a car...yes I'm serious...


Just checked seems your studying accounting, no offense intended but your lack of understanding shows your clearly out of your depth.

Why go to all of that effort when kits are already available cheap? There are some many new and second hand RB30ET parts around that its not funny.

Like my boss says to me, "Sometimes its best not to be a pioneer".

If its wank factor you're after, go and buy some pretty neons.

Ruffy wrote:LPG systems work on the vacuum created by the engine to act on a diapragm or the airflow of the engine passing a venturi to create a vacumm. If you apply a positive pressure to most gas mixers/convertors it will stop the gas flow and stall the engine..

LPG systems work on air pressure difference, which induces air velocity which in turn induces gas flow. The mixer is a venturi restrictor, just like the venturis in a petrol carby. The pressure downstream will be lower than upstream regardless whether the cause of the pressure difference is a blow-through turbo (or s/c), a draw-through turbo (or s/c) or a normally aspirated engine. If you were running sequential turbos (output of one turbo feeding into the other to multiply boost) or a turbo feeding a supercharger, you could put the mixer upstream, downstream or in between and it will work if set up correctly.

If you apply the same pressure to the atmospheric reference port of the converter as is on the input side of the mixer, then the system sees that as atmospheric pressure and will work fine. How well it works depends on the design of the gas system.

[quote="bikeboy37"]
The system is aimed at people who really only want a turbo for wank factor, hence such low boost. The idea came to mind when noticing how much people spend on rims and sound systems, plastics and nos drinks./[quote]

I only run 7 psi and still produce plenty of power, because its got good bits on it and is tuned right....

And no i didnt need CAD drawings to get mine built

or the fact that he is saying he wants to build a crap setup to screw those who have money into buying his idea rather than wheels or stereos, then says he wants it for wank so its not for them its for him, and of course says he wants to do it in the easiest possible bolt on fashion so instead of using a t-piece to get oil for example he will build a power steer pump with electric motor and laptop controller and all this will be easier and cheaper than a $2.50 brass T-Piece from Enzed....do I go on?...oh yeah and he is going to write his own mapping software for the ECU he is building for this straight gas bling king wank factor monster....

Yes I am 21 and yes I do own several cars. A feroza (currently rebuilding the engine), fj60, mkIII sprite (currently restoring) and kingswood. I have worked on cars, motorbikes and go-karts all my life and I can assure you im no dumb arse. I have rebuilt several engines and gearboxes over the years. Yes I am an accountant/financial controller part time at the moment and I am in my final year of accounting / info systems (software development). I have also completed several certificates in engineering part time. The only reason I chose accounting/is over engineering was due to the higher demand for accountants at the time and also it is a good job if you want to travel overseas.

I have grown up in several family owned companies that include welding repairs and servicing; manufacturing cutting machines such as gas, plasma and drills; steel merchant. I have a lot of experience in fitting and machining.

It seems to me that some people only read half a post or miss a point. The point of this exercise has 2 reasons.
1. A turbo on my car, for the hell of it just to fiddle with
2. I see a hole in the market that could be filled. Turbo kits are quite expensive and there isn’t really a kit that is made for someone with only mediocre skills. I haven’t seen one kit yet under $3000, which includes absolutely everything from a turbo to piping and manifolds plus an ecu. By making certain parts usable on many different applications costs can be reduced. I do believe there would be a lot of people with medium mechanical skills that would like a cheap low performance turbo kit that is easy to add and remove.

The reason I do it to my car firstly is its straight gas, no ecu and basic. This way we can study the constraints as none of us have really had experience with a turbo. Basically we will study the basics from this so we have a good understanding in what is required.

The reason why it will then be done to the rb30 is to further increase our knowledge by studying the constraints on a fuel injected motor and implement some of our ideas. After this stage is successful then the next stage is to create a system that uses as many similar parts as possible so it can be used on several different cars at the cheapest possible cost.

The reason why I am drawing everything up in cad is because I have access to machinery that can produce what I want in the matter of minutes. Plus in further development having cad files allows the ease of simplification, e.g make piping designs as similar to other models of cars as possible.

If you don’t try something new then you don’t fail but at the same time you never succeed above where you currently are in life. Maybe we are wrong about the idea in our heads, maybe I don’t have the skills, but at the end of the day its for fun and may also produce some income. I am sorry if I am sounding like a douche and I may have given the wrong idea as I didn’t pay much attention at english back in school days. But I do find it offensive when someone says I don’t have the skills.

then use your all your engineering power and build a bridge and get over it

bikeboy37 wrote:The reason why it will then be done to the rb30 is to further increase our knowledge by studying the constraints on a fuel injected motor and implement some of our ideas. After this stage is successful then the next stage is to create a system that uses as many similar parts as possible so it can be used on several different cars at the cheapest possible cost.

I don't see why you would try and re-invent the wheel with the RB30, as this is a WELL trodden road.

And as far as writing a new program for the Computer, i think it would be easier to buy a Nistune Daughter board and program for $400

I just saw a COMPLETE RB30et setup go, for $1400, so it would have to be very cheap to compete with that

So i stand by my previouse statement that depending on Motor, you should get change from $2000, and yep that is including dyno time

Gee's People, its his money.
I do see merit in the power steer pump, expressly if it was electric driven. The oil could be still be flowing if the engine should stall. But as no one else does this (read manufacturers) and they don't have problems and he is only going to run low boost, it would seam like a waste of time.
Ken Warby ( the speed record Guy) ran a boat with gas and turbos. That is where I would start my research.
Good luck, Bikeboy. These things never end cheap.

Problems I see is that Garrett already have eletric powered turbo for spooling them up and then dis-connect once it's up to a certain speed.

You'll end up with extra motors and pumps for no other point than to simply supply a turbo with compressed oil that'll be heated and then that oil will again be heated up by the turbo itself and the motor.

Then your expecting to run this all on a gas carbie lol I have friends that spend over $10,000 trying to get a carbie petrol motor turboed just for wank factor.

Guess what it failed big time, and then went and bought a skyline and havn't had stupid ideas again all the while saving a shit load of cash.

I won't say why it didn't work but I'll let you find out why it doesn't work.

Bikerboy, most of us here are all for new ideas and new ways to takle things, however it appears that you must have either way too much spare time, or too much money.

As said already (many times), the nissan RB30/ET has had the absolute shit engineered out of it. You name it, someone has tried it. Hell, 8 second street driven RB30ET's are not uncommon.

I think any sort of "redevelopment" of aftermarket RB30/ET parts is a complete waste of time - even the Chinese manufacturers have jumped on this bandwagon.

As for copnstructing "piping designs as similar to other models of cars as possible", dont bother. Every car is plumbed differently, every engine for a given model is plumbed differently, and this is not taking into consideration other variables such as fuel type, pre-existing accessories etc etc.

If you want ideas on "best practice", troll through the forum here, or even better - have a look on here: http://www.calaisturbo.com.au/

Nobody is here to upset you, we're here to help.

We do a considerable number of petrol and LPG turbos for 4x4 and cars alike. The cost of and install is reflected by the quality and power. If you want a system that will provide reasonable power on LPG then budget for and LPG system such as Gasresearch which is less restrictive and more tuneable than other simple or complex mixer types, also allow for a quality ignition as LPG is less volatile than petrol and requires a high output spark for good combustion. Turbos as a rule create high cylinder pressures that need above average ignition performance.
Turbos can cost from $150 to $2500 depending on the requirement for power and longevity, whether they are new or second hand (expect a second hand turbo to need a rebuild).
A couple of basics are that Horsepower requires fuel, the fuel system must be capable of supplying suficient fuel under all conditions, the ignition output and advance requirement is different, less timing and greater output is required for forced induction. Big power includes appropriate engine modification to cope with the power. There are cost comparisons on the forums already so I won't go into that, I'd suggest you do your research and be sure you are geting advice from an expert not an enthusiast, there is as much information ans misinformation available on the Net.

Joel

bikeboy37 wrote:Yes I am 21 and yes I do own several cars. A feroza (currently rebuilding the engine), fj60, mkIII sprite (currently restoring) and kingswood. I have worked on cars, motorbikes and go-karts all my life and I can assure you im no dumb arse. I have rebuilt several engines and gearboxes over the years. Yes I am an accountant/financial controller part time at the moment and I am in my final year of accounting / info systems (software development). I have also completed several certificates in engineering part time. The only reason I chose accounting/is over engineering was due to the higher demand for accountants at the time and also it is a good job if you want to travel overseas.

I have grown up in several family owned companies that include welding repairs and servicing; manufacturing cutting machines such as gas, plasma and drills; steel merchant. I have a lot of experience in fitting and machining.

It seems to me that some people only read half a post or miss a point. The point of this exercise has 2 reasons.
1. A turbo on my car, for the hell of it just to fiddle with
2. I see a hole in the market that could be filled. Turbo kits are quite expensive and there isn’t really a kit that is made for someone with only mediocre skills. I haven’t seen one kit yet under $3000, which includes absolutely everything from a turbo to piping and manifolds plus an ecu. By making certain parts usable on many different applications costs can be reduced. I do believe there would be a lot of people with medium mechanical skills that would like a cheap low performance turbo kit that is easy to add and remove.

The reason I do it to my car firstly is its straight gas, no ecu and basic. This way we can study the constraints as none of us have really had experience with a turbo. Basically we will study the basics from this so we have a good understanding in what is required.

The reason why it will then be done to the rb30 is to further increase our knowledge by studying the constraints on a fuel injected motor and implement some of our ideas. After this stage is successful then the next stage is to create a system that uses as many similar parts as possible so it can be used on several different cars at the cheapest possible cost.

The reason why I am drawing everything up in cad is because I have access to machinery that can produce what I want in the matter of minutes. Plus in further development having cad files allows the ease of simplification, e.g make piping designs as similar to other models of cars as possible.

If you don’t try something new then you don’t fail but at the same time you never succeed above where you currently are in life. Maybe we are wrong about the idea in our heads, maybe I don’t have the skills, but at the end of the day its for fun and may also produce some income. I am sorry if I am sounding like a douche and I may have given the wrong idea as I didn’t pay much attention at english back in school days. But I do find it offensive when someone says I don’t have the skills.

A basic understanding is needed in everything in life to succeed, FI is no exception.

Experience.... no doubt, i can see the similarities between a go-kart or meat head mobile as to a forced induction motor, Let that not stop you, but before you ask for advise on an FORUM about something you seem to have no idea about, research....Forced Induction Performance Tuning, the book should be read before thinking in general, a complete kit has not been made for "cheap", because it is not viable. Although i would pay to see you run a turbo oiling system from your power steering pump and/or (a secret of mine), replacing the muffler bearings for ultimate horsepower. All the cad drawings in the world won't save the seals.

atmosphere is around 14psi, adding 8psi will add significant power/torque gains if done correctly.

Keyboard warrior timed-out......

bikeboy37 wrote:Yes I am 21 and yes I do own several cars. A feroza (currently rebuilding the engine), fj60, mkIII sprite (currently restoring) and kingswood....

thats four, where are the rest of them?

Big deal if you can put a set of bearings into a big end, it has no relation to the topic of turbos.

for three grand, and as a overseas buyer is concerned, why would they bother? For the price you could go a super changer... All most every car will take 8 pounds of boost without the need for a ecu change/adaptation, and anyone with some sort of low level mechanical experience can retard the timing to get the fuel they need into the car. For wank factor, well most guys who do that, build show cars, and for the price for building there interior alone, do you really think there going to skimp on a motor build up... I doubt it.

The power steering pump is a novel idea, and that's all it is, the motor is already equipped with more oil/cooling capacity than any power steering pump is going to offer and it cycles as soon as the motor is going, all for a $2.50 enzed t section.... If you put together a package for a fwd car, where can you mount such a large pump/power steering unit? the shear size is a problem alone, and keeping that small amount of oil cool will be another problem.

Its a case of Kiss, if you complicate the problem it stuffs up,

bikeboy37 wrote: Turbo kits are quite expensive and there isn’t really a kit that is made for someone with only mediocre skills.

that could have something to do with turbos being precision engineered components, where half a gram of balance difference can cause the turbine to feed itself and the housing into the engine.

Ever seen the chinese kits for people with mediocre skills and low budgets?

Epoxied together turbo's etc...

I think there's too many members in this thread criticising the OP simply so they can prove they know more about turbos than he does, without understanding what he wants to achieve.

I think he's got an interesting idea, and whether or not it will work, he will learn a lot in the process. Why discourage him? It's his time and his money, and he's not as stupid as some seem to have concluded.

If you can't offer anything constructive, STFU. We're all here to learn, so why jump on somebody for not already knowing?