Outer Limits 4x4 Board

As the owner of a Chinese "generic" style winch ( actually a REPCO unit ) i've had several year use out of it - punctuated by a couple of VERY ANNOYING / POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS incidents.

The problem is that it occaisionally wouldn't engage regardless of the position of the freespool clutch. And much more importantly it also disengaged when subject to large shock loads.......

This didn't seem logical, as the freespool mechanism was sliding in the gearbox housing as designed and there didn't seem to be any other clutch components involved.

Having finally got around to pulling the winch down it has become obvious exactly what the problem is. The final planetry drive ( of which there are three in total ) drives the winch drum via a "floating" extended output gear which also mates with an internal spline in the drum.

The axial mesh of this final gear is controlled by the thickness of the planetry clusters and plastic shims. Looking at the edges of the final drive gear it is obvious that is has been floating axially in the gearbox - comming out of engagement with the final planetry and thus loosing drive.

Shock loads appear to trigger this and explain why its occaisional.

However this could result in the drum freespooling without any control - not a desirable situation.

The solution obviously is to shim the geartrains to prevent this movement, at this moment I'm not convinced that the plastic shims are suitable for this - however it might simply be a case of incorrect setup during manufacture. Its not that the component quality is substandard, its either a poor assembly process or a design issue, either way I'll post my solution / findings etc as things develop if anyones interested.

.
IMO the consequences of this type of disengagement ( complete loss of drive AND braking ) are sufficiently serious that anyone with one of these units needs to check this, If the final drive gear shows any signs of wear on the side that mates with the final planetry then you have a problem just waiting to happen.

Any pics???

If its a Repco one then its an Ironman one

bad design cheapie winch?............


you can't be serious!

joeblow wrote:bad design cheapie winch?............


you can't be serious!

Im way ahead of you with a solution mighty
Tie it to the back of your Truck tow it around the street
Then throw it in the bin
Then buy a real one ,Thats what im about to do

The "real" ones are set up the same, Warn 9k, 10k that is .
identical to look at.

Fozdick wrote:The "real" ones are set up the same, Warn 9k, 10k that is .
identical to look at.

I knew Warn winches were over rated (Flame Suit on)
But I didnt realise they were cheap Chinese Rubbish

beinthemud wrote:

Fozdick wrote:The "real" ones are set up the same, Warn 9k, 10k that is .
identical to look at.

I knew Warn winches were over rated (Flame Suit on)
But I didnt realise they were cheap Chinese Rubbish

Yes warn are overated, and NO they're not cheap chinesse rubbish...

Ruffy wrote:

beinthemud wrote:

Fozdick wrote:The "real" ones are set up the same, Warn 9k, 10k that is .
identical to look at.

I knew Warn winches were over rated (Flame Suit on)
But I didnt realise they were cheap Chinese Rubbish

Yes warn are overated, and NO they're not cheap chinesse rubbish...

and i have never seen a warn with that much geartrain slop......and i've serviced heaps.

not on the warn bandwagon.......i'd much rather a premier.


but you get what you pay for.

joeblow wrote:

Ruffy wrote:

beinthemud wrote:

Fozdick wrote:The "real" ones are set up the same, Warn 9k, 10k that is .
identical to look at.

I knew Warn winches were over rated (Flame Suit on)
But I didnt realise they were cheap Chinese Rubbish

Yes warn are overated, and NO they're not cheap chinesse rubbish...

and i have never seen a warn with that much geartrain slop......and i've serviced heaps.

not on the warn bandwagon.......i'd much rather a premier.


but you get what you pay for.

Not to be smart but aren't Premeires cheaper than Warnes?

Sort of negates the get what you pay for rule a tad

warn tabor or magnum bout 1300 bucks.

base model premier roughly the same. (with a heap more goodies inside.)

Oh and for the record I know the Repco winch isnt cheap Chinese crap
Its Cheap Taiwanese Crap and now you have me worried about the cheap Taiwanese crap Ironman winch on the front of mine

The Magnum didn't do that good on the 4WDAction test. I think I'll be looking at a Tigerz11 with rope.

LPGQ4.2AUTO wrote:The Magnum didn't do that good on the 4WDAction test. I think I'll be looking at a Tigerz11 with rope.

those tests are carried out for performance. quality and potential problems are usually never considered in a crappy magazine test.

joeblow wrote:

LPGQ4.2AUTO wrote:The Magnum didn't do that good on the 4WDAction test. I think I'll be looking at a Tigerz11 with rope.

those tests are carried out for performance. quality and potential problems are usually never considered in a crappy magazine test.

Agreed, a magazine test run on a range of winch's shouldn't be a deciding factor in which could be a truck or life saving matter.

Ok - rebuild complete.

And just to get things straight Its not a COMPONENT QUALITY issue. Popular and all as it is to bag cheap stuff - especially if you have spent a small fortune on a big name brand, in this case its was an assembly problem.

I'd hope that a winch three times the price was manufactured to exceptional standards, but at the end of the day I'd have to say what I've got is acceptable. I've seen/heard of enough expensive winches failing to know that none are perfect.

The final drive gear in my "repco - ironman" is seperate from the drum ( apparently not the case in later versions ) and had been incorrectly shimmed from the factory - causing the problem as described. A single 5mm shim ( didn't use the original ones ) fixed the problem .

Whilst I had it apart made new thrust shims ( out of phosphor bronze ) for all the planetry sets ( includiing some where there were none originally ) possible overkill but whilst I ws doing it.........

Took a bit of measuring to get the clearances right, but its assembly issue has been resolved.

Lots of grease in it from the factory and very little evidence of water/crap getting into the gearbox ( motor was perfect ) but the grease wasn't anything special so repacked with quality grease.

The seal on the clutch lever ( where i suspect some water had got in ) is a simple rubber washer, which isn't perfect so have turned an O ring groove in the shaft and fitted an O ring.

Quieter now but its a bit difficult to know wether is the new grease or assembly at this stage.

So the test is... undo the stays, and remove the gearbox. if the final drive gear can be removed from the drum / gearbox then you MIGHT have the same assembly issue, in which case it should be fixed IMMEDIATELY.

TIme will tell if my mods stand the test ( as with everything ) but now that its been stripped and modified I'm as confident as is possible that its going to do its job.

MIghty Mouse,not being a smart ass, but what would be the cost of this "fix" ?Do you think this could be a "one off" or a "common" problem?
With the cost of fix/repair is the lower price winch still value for dollar?

I guess the potential cost would be loss of /damage to a vehicle or peronal injury, in an extreme and unlikely case for the winches currently installed in vehicles.

It doesn't sond very expensive to fix though.

Steve.

Having had a bit of an internet search, i've found other references to this issue - and the change in later winches also confirms my theory.

The actual time taken to make the parts to "fix it permanently..." was a couple of hours, but I did spend some time pondering what approach to take and how to measure the clearances, and what scrap material I had lying around that could be used instead of using new bar stock ( i'm a tightarse sometimes... )

Whilst it was apart, I've replaced the stays with new stainless ones as the original steel cable had worn them and removed the chrome leading to rusting. The drum was remachined and powdercoated to ( hopefully ) protect the plasma rope.

Obviously removing and refitting the winch takes quite awhile more... so it depends if your going to count that or not. Personally I think no matter what brand you running - regular mainenance is necessary so I'm not adding that in my case - however if your simply doing it because your concerned then its more like four hours if your winch isn't too hard to get too. From what I've been able to find, the winch was sold as a Repco / Ironman unit but has since been changed so the output gear is fixed.

I believe Ironman did supply a retrofit solution ( once again Internet discussion ) but Repco most certainly did not. I've sent Repco an email to see what they say - not hopefull, but I'll wait and see.

MightyMouse wrote: And much more importantly it also disengaged when subject to large shock loads.......

Shock loads? Isn't that golden rule number one of what not to do.

Shock loads... for example the rope changing its path on the drum suddenly whilst winching, or the load varying due to obstacles. With a car hanging on it its a definate jolt and was enough to cause the problem.

And even if its was by poor rigging, its still not an excuse for slack adjustment during assembly. If it had broken then a jolt could well have exceeded its ratings - however it just came out of mesh.

Also the issue COULD happen during normal use, although I did't experience it.