Outer Limits 4x4 Board

hey
i keep blowing the diaphragms on fuel regulators, as is fuel comes out the vacum, i only have a vl fuel pump, nuttin big. and now im blowing hose clamps as well.

are u running the standard sierra fuel line with the VL hooked up to it? also standard fuel return line?

standard metal line but i upgraded the rubber hose to efi stuff. and im getting a surge tank in a day or 2.

sounds like you're system is not breathing correctly, surge tanks should allways be installed if an external system is used.

i havnt had a surge tank for ova a year. just the vl pump. and stock tank. going to hook up the surge tank soon and redo the whole fuel system at the same time i think.

why would that filter have to be a high pressure filter if it is b4 the high pressure pump. theres no pressure there.

well, to be on the safe side you have a low pressure pump feeding fuel, plus you have the engine return feeding fuel. this combo can increase the pressure to the outlet for the high pressure pump. is best to be safe than sorry.

the hi pressuse filter is required because it is a finer filter (not the brand ) it is designed to filter finer particals.
what reg are you breaking?

You dont need a surge tank but they are a good idea thou hard to place correctly in a zook.

I run

tank > low pressure filter > low pressure pump > high pressure pump > high pres filter > engine.

And i have upgraded the main line to a bigger line (same as vitara) and reused the original main line as the return line.

what reg do you have? regs have different ratings as well.

like you can't use a holly red (i think, its been years since i played with v8's) reg with a blue pump. the reg is only designed to work up to about 20 psi from the pump where the pump puts out about 45 and up.

thats how i had mine setup but without the surge tank, worked fine, except on really nasty angles

me217 wrote:... i only have a vl fuel pump, nuttin big. ...

A VL fuel pump can flow enough fuel to make around 400HP, while not physically large they are a big pump.

EDIT:

A VL pump is a bosch 070 flows 130litres per hour at 3 bar

The pump for a swift is the bosch 077 and flows 60litres per hour at 2.84 bar

I would be trying a smaller pump.

zook4fun wrote:what reg do you have? regs have different ratings as well.

like you can't use a holly red (i think, its been years since i played with v8's) reg with a blue pump. the reg is only designed to work up to about 20 psi from the pump where the pump puts out about 45 and up.

its a efi fuel reg drift brand from autobahn. fixed the leak. and now the fuel pump is making a horrible noise. and i didnt upgrade the lines cause they were the same size as the vit.

pulled the pump out today and cleaned it out and put it back in but its still making heaps of noise. but only after its bin running for a couple mins. does this mean i got a dying pump. its only bout a year old. but its had no surge tank or lifter pump.

"Roller Cell" pumps are VERY intollerant of running dry. They are cooled and lubricated by the fuel flow so if they run dry the wear rate goes through the roof.

In OE applications this isn't an issue usually as the pump is immersed in the fuel tank or primed by a lift pump so its always "wet".

You will usually see the EFI fuel filter AFTER the HP pump, the suction restriction of a low micron filter can cause cavitation and therefore wear issues and its really the injectors that need to protected from the low micron rubbish.

If you must fit a suction filter to the HP pump it should be much coarser and very low restriction. If your running a surge tank and LP pump/filter then a HP suction filter isn't the way to go.

if its making "bad" noises its just going to get worse and eventually fail so fix your system design and change the HP pump.

The days of the fuel system being a "who cares" part of the vehicle are gone they need to be engineered correctly, its an area where following the concepts used by the manufacturers is a clever move.

MightyMouse wrote: its an area where following the concepts used by the manufacturers is a clever move.

I've yet to understand the requirement for a 400hp of fuel pump flow, surge tanks etc all jammed into a tiny car that sees off road use. It's a bulky, leaky, noisy, expensive and often unlreliable solution to a problem that doesn't really exist.

I've set up quite a few cars with vitara tanks and stock swimmer pumps and it's a neat, elegant, factory solution.

I understand that the same generic vitara swimmer pump is used for up to 140KW in the XL-7 - it's always going to supply enough fuel for a G16.

Steve.[/b]

Just a Q.

Why are you running a external reg? as i thought or at least my G16B has one built in to the inlet manifold.

Also check your charcoal canister is not blocked up and return lines are all clear and not blocked up or can get blocked with mud etc

That's a very good point. I have a drift brand reg in my 660 and it's a pretty low quality item - and I had to cut the spring down in mine to get usable adjustment with the fairly low fuel pressure they require.

If you've removed the stock regulator, do you know you are fuelling the car at the correct pressure? I could imagine that at low fuel pressure, the high flow of the VL pump could be blowing the reg out.

Steve.

nicbeer wrote:Why are you running a external reg?

A VL pump overwhelemed the stock regulator ...... ? Change the reg in an attempt to hide the pump sizing issues... and so on.

Sure there is an excelent reason to fit a huge pump... huge power

Also don't understimate the current drawn by EFI pumps, if your electrical system is modest then why waste the power simply circulating and heating fuel for no purpose.

P.S. the turbine style pumps are much more tolerant of crap in the fuel but still should be fitted with a discharge filter to keep the injectors happy.

Unfortunately they have virtually no dry lift capability so should be immersed.

Gwagensteve wrote:I've yet to understand the requirement for a 400hp of fuel pump flow, surge tanks etc all jammed into a tiny car that sees off road use. It's a bulky, leaky, noisy, expensive and often unlreliable solution to a problem that doesn't really exist.

I've set up quite a few cars with vitara tanks and stock swimmer pumps and it's a neat, elegant, factory solution.

I understand that the same generic vitara swimmer pump is used for up to 140KW in the XL-7 - it's always going to supply enough fuel for a G16.

Steve.[/b]

I am totally in agreeance on the bulk issue, I am having a hell of a time trying to figure where to cram all this crap in my SWB at the moment. This is what is stopping me making in progress with the engine conversion.

The problem with the swimmer pump solution is fitting it to the vehicle also (meaning fitting the Vit tank). I know the Vitara tank can be fitted with either a BL or a floor cut, but I have not heard of a satisfactory fit without either of these. Could the pickup system be fitted to a standard SWB Sierra tank?
I have spoken to one person who has not been happy with the fuel supply of this setup as well, saying that dual pumps and a surge tank is a better solution (them having used both). Yet others claim this system works perfectly well; it frustrates me when I'm not sure what to believe.

Highway-Star wrote:

Gwagensteve wrote:I've yet to understand the requirement for a 400hp of fuel pump flow, surge tanks etc all jammed into a tiny car that sees off road use. It's a bulky, leaky, noisy, expensive and often unlreliable solution to a problem that doesn't really exist.

I've set up quite a few cars with vitara tanks and stock swimmer pumps and it's a neat, elegant, factory solution.

I understand that the same generic vitara swimmer pump is used for up to 140KW in the XL-7 - it's always going to supply enough fuel for a G16.

Steve.[/b]

I am totally in agreeance on the bulk issue, I am having a hell of a time trying to figure where to cram all this crap in my SWB at the moment. This is what is stopping me making in progress with the engine conversion.

The problem with the swimmer pump solution is fitting it to the vehicle also (meaning fitting the Vit tank). I know the Vitara tank can be fitted with either a BL or a floor cut, but I have not heard of a satisfactory fit without either of these. Could the pickup system be fitted to a standard SWB Sierra tank?
I have spoken to one person who has not been happy with the fuel supply of this setup as well, saying that dual pumps and a surge tank is a better solution (them having used both). Yet others claim this system works perfectly well; it frustrates me when I'm not sure what to believe.

Highway-star-

I started out running only the VL pump and i was getting pump staving when lowish on fuel, not sure of that was directly from the routing of my fuel lines or not but after i installed a priming pump (carter style) low pressure pump i have not had an issue and can easy go on all angles with no issues.

i agree on where to put surge tank etc on a SWB safely?

nicbeer wrote:

Highway-Star wrote:

Gwagensteve wrote:I've yet to understand the requirement for a 400hp of fuel pump flow, surge tanks etc all jammed into a tiny car that sees off road use. It's a bulky, leaky, noisy, expensive and often unlreliable solution to a problem that doesn't really exist.

I've set up quite a few cars with vitara tanks and stock swimmer pumps and it's a neat, elegant, factory solution.

I understand that the same generic vitara swimmer pump is used for up to 140KW in the XL-7 - it's always going to supply enough fuel for a G16.

Steve.[/b]

I am totally in agreeance on the bulk issue, I am having a hell of a time trying to figure where to cram all this crap in my SWB at the moment. This is what is stopping me making in progress with the engine conversion.

The problem with the swimmer pump solution is fitting it to the vehicle also (meaning fitting the Vit tank). I know the Vitara tank can be fitted with either a BL or a floor cut, but I have not heard of a satisfactory fit without either of these. Could the pickup system be fitted to a standard SWB Sierra tank?
I have spoken to one person who has not been happy with the fuel supply of this setup as well, saying that dual pumps and a surge tank is a better solution (them having used both). Yet others claim this system works perfectly well; it frustrates me when I'm not sure what to believe.

Highway-star-

I started out running only the VL pump and i was getting pump staving when lowish on fuel, not sure of that was directly from the routing of my fuel lines or not but after i installed a priming pump (carter style) low pressure pump i have not had an issue and can easy go on all angles with no issues.

i agree on where to put surge tank etc on a SWB safely?

So Nic, you are running a low pressure pump and a high pressure pump, but without the surge tank in between? So your fuel rail excess would just dump straight back into the fuel tank?
I can see how this would work, but there is not allot of fuel reserve between the two pumps; which means excessive periods at funky angles may cause issues again maybe?


anyone got the VIN number of a coily sierra that came stock with all this internal swimmer pump in the tank? For the cost of a brand new system it might be the same cost as buying 2 pumps and a surge tank anyway.... Can PM VIN if you want. Anyone want to comment on the suitability of the coily system for a G16 EFI conversion?

Highway-Star wrote: So Nic, you are running a low pressure pump and a high pressure pump, but without the surge tank in between? So your fuel rail excess would just dump straight back into the fuel tank?
I can see how this would work, but there is not allot of fuel reserve between the two pumps; which means excessive periods at funky angles may cause issues again maybe?


anyone got the VIN number of a coily sierra that came stock with all this internal swimmer pump in the tank? For the cost of a brand new system it might be the same cost as buying 2 pumps and a surge tank anyway.... Can PM VIN if you want. Anyone want to comment on the suitability of the coily system for a G16 EFI conversion?

Correct.

As above i wrote running but woking well so far. i am presuming the reserve is also in the carby style filter as well.

original vitara fuel line from engine back to VL pump and high press filter. then dropping into a carby style clear filter and carter low pressure filter pulling from tank.

Any excess at engine end would go back down return line (i am using the original sierra fuel line as the return as its bigger than the original return).

nicbeer wrote:

Highway-Star wrote: So Nic, you are running a low pressure pump and a high pressure pump, but without the surge tank in between? So your fuel rail excess would just dump straight back into the fuel tank?
I can see how this would work, but there is not allot of fuel reserve between the two pumps; which means excessive periods at funky angles may cause issues again maybe?


anyone got the VIN number of a coily sierra that came stock with all this internal swimmer pump in the tank? For the cost of a brand new system it might be the same cost as buying 2 pumps and a surge tank anyway.... Can PM VIN if you want. Anyone want to comment on the suitability of the coily system for a G16 EFI conversion?

Correct.

As above i wrote running but woking well so far. i am presuming the reserve is also in the carby style filter as well.

original vitara fuel line from engine back to VL pump and high press filter. then dropping into a carby style clear filter and carter low pressure filter pulling from tank.

Any excess at engine end would go back down return line (i am using the original sierra fuel line as the return as its bigger than the original return).

OK thanks for that. Some more stuff to think about.

nicbeer wrote:Just a Q.

Why are you running a external reg? as i thought or at least my G16B has one built in to the inlet manifold.

Also check your charcoal canister is not blocked up and return lines are all clear and not blocked up or can get blocked with mud etc

my old one died the same way the new ones are.

me217 wrote:

nicbeer wrote:Just a Q.

Why are you running a external reg? as i thought or at least my G16B has one built in to the inlet manifold.

Also check your charcoal canister is not blocked up and return lines are all clear and not blocked up or can get blocked with mud etc

my old one died the same way the new ones are.

old one as in the original one?

if so then something is wrong with your setup.

can u post up what your complete setup is?

fuel goes from tank -> HP fuel pump -> HP filter -> fuel rail -> regulator -> back to tank. fuel pump is vl turbo fuel pump.

vl pumps arnt meant to be sucking fuel from a distance otherwise they will be noisy and will not last as long as they should, the setup above in the pic is the right way to do it even without the surge tank if need be, you couldnt even hear my pump runing, it was that quiet, cant remember what motor your running, but if its the injected 1.6 it has a reg built in the fuel rail and you dont need another 1.

i do need another one cause the old one was pissing out fuel out the vaccum hose. and its not drawin from a distance as the pump is in the bit of soft hose just after the tank. prob still to far tho.