Outer Limits 4x4 Board

i was ringin aroun today for prices on fitting up a towbar to my rtv falcon ute (tray back) and lpg, cheapest quote was 545 fitted and rated to 2300kgs and a reece hitch style towbar. i also rang ford for a price on a bar, they wanted 770 for the bar and 950 for a load leveler and this apparently is required for the bar to be rated at 2300 kgs, can anyone shed sum light on this and why its required?, i will only be towing the buggy and not a caravan.

A STD towbar is rated to around 1600kg on a falcon, if you want to go over 2 tonnes, you WILL need the load leveler to be safe/legal( I have towed more without but only short trips)

I would definatly reccomend the load lever, just get the best price for the whole package and go that way..

The Load lever will take some of the weight off your back wheels, and transfer it to the front ie. If you look at the Car and trailer together, they will both sit more level, increasing your braking and steering.

I have a fairlane with the 2300kg Ford tow hitch that i tow my Patrol ute with occasionally. I bought the car without a hitch and then set about getting one fitted, the only problem being that only Ford offered a 2300kg rated hitch and they sold it as part of a "tow pack" which also included an auto trans cooler and a load leveller for some stupid $$, i cant remember.
Any other towbar mob would only offer a 2100kg hitch, so i ended up finding a ford 2300kg hitch from a wreck and installed my own tranny cooler and dont bother with a load leveller.
The load leveller, or more accuratly "load distributer", just distributes some of the weight on the towball to the front of the vehicle, levelling the tow vehicle, and is ultimatly the safest way to set up a tow vehicle with a significant towball downweight.

In other words you can get away with not using one

especially in a leaf sprung RTV

i should also add that when i bought the car new i added a tranny cooler and a couple of extra heavy dutly leafs to the rear as it was used as a battery van for the rac, i also upgraded the shocks and it neva dragged its ass when it had nearly a tonn of batteries in the back.

bazooked wrote:i should also add that when i bought the car new i added a tranny cooler and a couple of extra heavy dutly leafs to the rear as it was used as a battery van for the rac, i also upgraded the shocks and it neva dragged its ass when it had nearly a tonn of batteries in the back.

you'll be right then.

whats the agg weigjht of trailer and buggy?
my guess is still over 2300kg?
mine comes in at about 3200kg

total weight should be under 2300, after all its a full tube buggy

steel wrote:

bazooked wrote:i should also add that when i bought the car new i added a tranny cooler and a couple of extra heavy dutly leafs to the rear as it was used as a battery van for the rac, i also upgraded the shocks and it neva dragged its ass when it had nearly a tonn of batteries in the back.

you'll be right then.

whats the agg weigjht of trailer and buggy?
my guess is still over 2300kg?
mine comes in at about 3200kg

So your saying you overload the fairlane towbar by 900kgs. Hmm not a good idea and unsafe not to mention insurance issues if you have a accident..

If you happen to get a genuine Ford H/D towbar be careful as the Hayman Reese WDH will not fit unless you shave the corners off the solid hitch mount.. Cause most genuine towbars are made using slightly different box section to Hayman Reese....

I wouldn't recommend towing without the level rides. It levels out your car and it also helps to reduce sway. Once you have had the "sway experience" once, you won't want it to happen again. With the level rides its easy to get it to tow nicely. There are two brands out there I would look out for, Reese and Hayman Reese. Both have adjustable heads so you can angle them correctly. Then just adjust the chain links to suit the load. You can even add a sway reducer item which I haven't used before but many say its worth having. You can get away with the mid range hayman item which allows for 250kg ball weight and make sure the buggy is loaded correctly to give you at least 10% ball weight on the trailer. Apart from that, if you can get a trailer with electric brakes its so much better than the hydraulic type.

steel wrote:...dont bother with a load leveller...

Well spoken from some one who obviously knows nothing about towbar ratings.



Short lesson for those who want to know.


Towbar ratings are used as what is the lowest rating of either the car or the towbar. If you have a 3T towbar on a model that can only tow 2T its rated at 2T regardless of what any one says.

A Ford vehicle ( of any make or model ) Is rated at either 1800kgs ( new rangers ) or 1600kgs ( all other fords ) REGARDLESS OF IF THE TOWBAR FITTED IS RATED HIGHER !!! Obviously if the towbar is lower so is the rating.

To get to the max rating ( 3T on the rangers and 2.3T on the territorys and falcons ) you MUST fit a weight distribution hitch of some style. This isn't just Towbar shop speak, it is written into ford contracts as well as most owners manuals.

If you dont use one you might as well be towing it on 54" tyres with 16" of lift.

bazooked wrote:...reece hitch style towbar...

One other thing to consider with the price. There are many differant brands of Square Hitch Towbar. Only the GENUINE Hayman Reese BRAND of towbar has life time warranty. Usally means any where from $50- to $200- differance in price to have the genuine item.

Nick

The load leveler on my dads old AU near-on tore the chassis apart.
They load the mounting points for the towbar in the wrong direction, twisting the ends of the chassis up.

with the trailer fully loaded it used to hit 4.5T on the weigh bridged at the tip.

brad-chevlux wrote:The load leveler on my dads old AU near-on tore the chassis apart.
They load the mounting points for the towbar in the wrong direction, twisting the ends of the chassis up.

with the trailer fully loaded it used to hit 4.5T on the weigh bridged at the tip.

Yeah well as said above why was he towing 4.5t on the back of a falcon anyway. Pretty dumb if ya ask me...

CWBYUP is on the money with what he says.. We are a Hayman Reese dealer at work and people say it all the time.. $$$$$$$ the genuine is cheaper but as stated above H/R lifetime warranty on the bar try getting that from the dealer....

sum good info here!, found out today i can get a load leveler for nuthin , a friend of a friend builds them, so whats a genuine hayman go for these days?

I dont think a load leveller is needed in your setup.
With such a light weight buggy and a leafie rear end, just take it for a tow and see how it feels.
bugger all people use load levellers ( mainly the caravan set).
My mate tows a 2000kg pro-class buggy on fully enclosed trailer with a rodeo and it handles great. actually with all the offroad racers at an event being towed in, ive never seen anyone using load levellers, same with all the horse floats getting around every weekend with 2 ton of horses in the back being towed by camrys and the like, no LL either.
I always considered load levellers were used if your rig was handling badly, not " just because"
remember that some giving advice on what to use are retailer sellers of the product they are reccomending.

^^^^^

I would love to a see a Camry towing a 2 tonne horse float and be legal..... Highly doubt it!!!!!!!!

Yes we as retailers are suggesting them cause we have seen and heard back from people who say that their van/horse float/car trailer tows so much better blah blah with one. Seen so many sold to customers and themselves sets it up and then complains that it doesn't work. So we set it up and they then comment oh it tows so much better

But one thing i do agree with you on is take it for a drive and see what happens and how it feels.

To answer BAZOOKED ? they go for about $700 the full set up you need to make it work one thing is that it needs to be set up right for it to work to the best of its ability.

I would like to see some drawings or pics to see how the load levelers are set up and how they acheive what they are said to acheive.

I fail to see what use they are and how they would increase the towing capacity. I gather from the discussion so far that they are supposed to throw or transfer some of the weight to the steer, but I am not sure given where a tow bar on a car sits how it would throw the weight.

I would have thought that a properly loader trailer would be the answer. If you have to much weight over the tow point you will sit the arse of the car down and lift the steer causing understeer, if you have the weight behind the axle\s of the trailer and are lifting from the tow point and as such the drive you can cause traction issues and may end up jack kniving the set up.

if you load the trailer with a couple of hundred kilos over the tow point, provided your trailer weight is at or under the capacity of the vehicle you wil have a couple of hundred kilos more on the tow vehicles increasing the weight of the vehicle slightly making this the heavier part of the combo and as such controling the trailer safeley should be ballances enough not to cause wobles, steering issues, traction issues etc

[quote="steel"]
My mate tows a 2000kg pro-class buggy on fully enclosed trailer with a rodeo and it handles great. actually with all the offroad racers at an event being towed in, ive never seen anyone using load levellers, same with all the horse floats getting around every weekend with 2 ton of horses in the back being towed by camrys and the like, no LL either.
[quote]

I agree, load leveling is only if the ball weight + what you have in the back exceeds the manufacturers load rating, or what ever your spring setup is rated to. And it will be obvious if you need load levelling anyway as mentioned because the tow car will sit uneven.

BOGAN V8 wrote:^^^^^

I would love to a see a Camry towing a 2 tonne horse float and be legal..... Highly doubt it!!!!!!!!

hey, i never said anything about legalities.
alot of shite isnt legal, does'nt mean it's unsafe

my rig tows well, and more importantly it's safe, without load levellers and i reckon using them would just add to my towball weight.
i have used LL's before (stock patrol with 2450kg tare caravan) and they worked well, but they were costantly dragging on kerbs and speed bumps, pain in the arse.
im sure LL's have there applications, i just don't think they're a "must have"

If the trailer load is always well balanced over the trailer axle(s), a load leveller would be pointless wouldn't it? Genuine question, not shit-stirring.

chimpboy wrote:If the trailer load is always well balanced over the trailer axle(s), a load leveller would be pointless wouldn't it? Genuine question, not shit-stirring.

its when you load a trailer as you described that you usually have problems with the trailer swaying or pitching.
it seems that a % (officially 10 %) of the trailers weight must be on the towball for a balanced set up, it's just depends on how the tow vehicle can handle that weight.

Tiny wrote:...I fail to see what use they are and how they would increase the towing capacity...

They don't increase towing capacity, it is just ford's own regulations.

I would have thought that a properly loader trailer would be the answer.

It is.

I never said load levelers on ever car. I was just stating that to be legal most fords need a leveler kit ( of any kind ) to tow over 1600kg's.

Nick

From my experiance with towing, it has a lot to do with the wieght of the tow vehicle vs what is being towed.

We did have a 17ft caravan, which towed nicely behind our patrol with out the load hitch, yet when using either of our rodeo dualcabs, the hayman reese load hitch made a lot of differenc to overall driving, and yes i did try with out HR hitch, and with out said hitch was a pig.

Also electric brakes are the shiz.

oldmate wrote:I agree, load leveling is only if the ball weight + what you have in the back exceeds the manufacturers load rating...

You obviously dont get it.

You can never tow over the amount the car is rated at. Regardless of what ever you thing is "right" or "safe" or what some bloke in a caravan park told you.

chimpboy wrote:If the trailer load is always well balanced over the trailer axle(s), a load leveller would be pointless wouldn't it? Genuine question, not shit-stirring.

Hey chimpy

Yes it is the answer unless you have a Ford ( see above post ).

The only reason this changes is if you need some sort of sway control but that is usally for horse floats and caravans etc.

Nick

CWBYUP wrote:
You can never tow over the amount the car is rated at. Regardless of what ever you thing is "right" or "safe" or what some bloke in a caravan park told you.

You obviously don't get it.

well that statement is clearly wrong.
of course you can tow over the amount the car is rated at, it happens everyday, hell, just about everytime a 4by gets towed on a car trailer.
consider that your average Landy/patrol will weigh between 2500 and 3000kg and your average car trailer will weigh 600 to 900kg. thats a possible agg weight of 3900kg and no 4by on the market (- F250) can legally tow that weight.
even at 3100kg there are few 4by's that can legally tow that weight.


Saying "You can never tow over the amount the car is rated at" is like saying " You can never remove swaybars and fit beadlocks to a 4x4"

The differance between you and the bloke in the caravan park "giving advice" is that he's not a salesman and he'll tell you what works for him, he's got no reason to lie.

steel wrote:

CWBYUP wrote:
You can never tow over the amount the car is rated at. Regardless of what ever you thing is "right" or "safe" or what some bloke in a caravan park told you.

You obviously don't get it.

well that statement is clearly wrong.
of course you can tow over the amount the car is rated at, it happens everyday, hell, just about everytime a 4by gets towed on a car trailer.
consider that your average Landy/patrol will weigh between 2500 and 3000kg and your average car trailer will weigh 600 to 900kg. thats a possible agg weight of 3900kg and no 4by on the market (- F250) can legally tow that weight.
even at 3100kg there are few 4by's that can legally tow that weight.


Saying "You can never tow over the amount the car is rated at" is like saying " You can never remove swaybars and fit beadlocks to a 4x4"

The differance between you and the bloke in the caravan park "giving advice" is that he's not a salesman and he'll tell you what works for him, he's got no reason to lie.

above is the reason why i upgraded my GQ and bought a GU, so i could have the correct tow capacity for my comp truck and trailer,

your right, people do tow way overloaded every day, i used to with me GQ, but i had a weight distribution setup on it and this improved towing in every aspect,

People do tend to relaise you cant tow with overloaded trailers and vehicles after an accident. This is when they get raped by the cops, and insurance company when they have had an accident, hurt or killed someone.

The people above are giving advice as they are retailers, they know the rules like some of us, and some of us do the right thing,
Imagine if they sold a customer a tow bar for a camry after being told the owner was going to tow a GQ patrol to comps with it, liability comes into it, they are covering their ass with the right advice

I have always towed with a load distribution hitch. The difference between not using one and using one is absolutely night and day on anything even slightly heavy (say over 1.5T).

You may think your trailer tows well and is safe and controllable without a load distribution and it probably is but I will guarantee that you put a load distribution hitch on and the thing will handle like a sports car by comparison.

You know when you are towing a trailer (without a distribution hitch) and you drive into a sweeping corner a bit fast and you have to jump on the brakes a bit hard and reef on the steering wheel a bit and the tow rig leans over and the trailer pushes on the arse end and you think "shiat" and everything gets a bit loose and uncontrolled...well that is when you can tell the difference.

Just as an example of how well you can get something to tow.

We towed buggies that weighed about 1500kg on trailers that weighed about 800kg behind things like a Landrover disco with elec brakes and load distribution hitch and you could almost drive just as hard into corners and brake just as late as if you didnt have a trailer on at all.. We would tow these things and would get held up on twisty roads by other 4wds and cars that wernt towing anything

Basically if your tow rig handles differently when you have the trailer on then you would be better off with a load distribution hitch. If you are driving a current model F250 with a 2000kg trailer and carnt notice that its behind you then you probably dont need one.

Sam

Tiny wrote:I would like to see some drawings or pics to see how the load levelers are set up and how they acheive what they are said to acheive.

I fail to see what use they are and how they would increase the towing capacity. I gather from the discussion so far that they are supposed to throw or transfer some of the weight to the steer, but I am not sure given where a tow bar on a car sits how it would throw the weight.

I would have thought that a properly loader trailer would be the answer. If you have to much weight over the tow point you will sit the arse of the car down and lift the steer causing understeer, if you have the weight behind the axle\s of the trailer and are lifting from the tow point and as such the drive you can cause traction issues and may end up jack kniving the set up.

if you load the trailer with a couple of hundred kilos over the tow point, provided your trailer weight is at or under the capacity of the vehicle you wil have a couple of hundred kilos more on the tow vehicles increasing the weight of the vehicle slightly making this the heavier part of the combo and as such controling the trailer safeley should be ballances enough not to cause wobles, steering issues, traction issues etc

The way I think about how they work is the load levelling bars basically grab hold of the rear towbar and try to rotate the towbar forwards...so it takes weight off the rear tyres and puts it on the front tyres.

When towing without one any towball weight takes weight off the front suspension...doesent matter how HD you rear suspension is or if you have airbags or whatever. You will always unweight the front end and its this that decreases the handling. With a load distribution hitch you can maintain or even increase the front suspension weight.

Basically when you put a load distribution hitch on you want the front suspension to sit lower than what it does with no trailer on. If the front sits lower then it has more weight on it and it will handle better.

Sam

Strange Rover wrote:

Tiny wrote:I would like to see some drawings or pics to see how the load levelers are set up and how they acheive what they are said to acheive.

I fail to see what use they are and how they would increase the towing capacity. I gather from the discussion so far that they are supposed to throw or transfer some of the weight to the steer, but I am not sure given where a tow bar on a car sits how it would throw the weight.

I would have thought that a properly loader trailer would be the answer. If you have to much weight over the tow point you will sit the arse of the car down and lift the steer causing understeer, if you have the weight behind the axle\s of the trailer and are lifting from the tow point and as such the drive you can cause traction issues and may end up jack kniving the set up.

if you load the trailer with a couple of hundred kilos over the tow point, provided your trailer weight is at or under the capacity of the vehicle you wil have a couple of hundred kilos more on the tow vehicles increasing the weight of the vehicle slightly making this the heavier part of the combo and as such controling the trailer safeley should be ballances enough not to cause wobles, steering issues, traction issues etc

The way I think about how they work is the load levelling bars basically grab hold of the rear towbar and try to rotate the towbar forwards...so it takes weight off the rear tyres and puts it on the front tyres.

When towing without one any towball weight takes weight off the front suspension...doesent matter how HD you rear suspension is or if you have airbags or whatever. You will always unweight the front end and its this that decreases the handling. With a load distribution hitch you can maintain or even increase the front suspension weight.

Basically when you put a load distribution hitch on you want the front suspension to sit lower than what it does with no trailer on. If the front sits lower then it has more weight on it and it will handle better.

Sam

Sam, I understand the concept and understand how throwing the weight to the front is benaficial, what I fail to see is how, given the point where the weight is transfered from the trailer to the tow vehecle, how it can throw the weight, and further, if the trailer is properly loader how there would be enough weight to make any significant difference should some of that weight be transfered to the steer.

Tiny wrote:Sam, I understand the concept and understand how throwing the weight to the front is benaficial, what I fail to see is how, given the point where the weight is transfered from the trailer to the tow vehecle, how it can throw the weight, and further, if the trailer is properly loader how there would be enough weight to make any significant difference should some of that weight be transfered to the steer.

The down weight on the ball is pushing down on the rear of the car, rotating the front of the car up - with the "axis of rotation" being the rear wheels.

A weight distributing hitch (what we called "torsion bars" when I was a kid) applies torque to the hitch, effectively rotating the front of the car down - with the "axis of rotation" being somewhere around the towball.

Alternative way to look at it?
Imagine a horizontal line through the trailer's A-frame, extending from the car's rear wheels through to the trailer's wheels. The trailer's ball weight is trying to bend that line down. A weight distributing hitch is trying to bend it in the opposite direction.

-Scott- wrote:

Tiny wrote:Sam, I understand the concept and understand how throwing the weight to the front is benaficial, what I fail to see is how, given the point where the weight is transfered from the trailer to the tow vehecle, how it can throw the weight, and further, if the trailer is properly loader how there would be enough weight to make any significant difference should some of that weight be transfered to the steer.

The down weight on the ball is pushing down on the rear of the car, rotating the front of the car up - with the "axis of rotation" being the rear wheels.

A weight distributing hitch (what we called "torsion bars" when I was a kid) applies torque to the hitch, effectively rotating the front of the car down - with the "axis of rotation" being somewhere around the towball.

Alternative way to look at it?
Imagine a horizontal line through the trailer's A-frame, extending from the car's rear wheels through to the trailer's wheels. The trailer's ball weight is trying to bend that line down. A weight distributing hitch is trying to bend it in the opposite direction.

like I stated in my first post I havn't seen one, so I am not entirely sure as to what they look like and where the points of contact etc are, but from what I gather this is all at the hitch, which is all behind the rear \ drive axle.

SO

the imginary line explination i get, didn't need that, but it is a good way to explain it so will run with that to try and explain where I have a problem.

so we are all in agreeance that a properly loaded trailer will have X% of the GVM of the trailer or x kilos to a certain max dependant on the vehicle and hitch and allowable towball \ hitch weight forward of the point of ballance.

we can also agree that the tow point is behind the rear axle of the tow vehicle, and when you put weight behind this axis point you will take weight off the front of the vehicle.

we can also agree that this is undesirable, and the best option is to try and share or distribute the weight evenly over the entire vehicle, I think we all know why.

Enter the Load Leveler

So again, I understand why you would want to throw the weight evenly over the tow vehicle, but unless the point of contact of the weight is past the axis, how does it do what we are wanting it to do?