Outer Limits 4x4 Board

apologies in advance, for what's probably a stupid question then again, there are no stupid questions, just some that are more easily answered than others

i just put some calmini 4.16 gears into my transfer, and am disappointed with the low range. compared to my mate's series one rockhopper (which should be identical) the crawl speed in my zook seems heaps higher. we're both running stock 1.3 WT diffs with 31" tyres (his possibly measure bigger).

i thought maybe i put the wrong low range gear in when rebuilding the x-fer, but looking at the manual and other pics, i don't think that would be possible? i don't think the gears would line up - see pics below...

am i missing something? the guy i bought the gears off is reliable, so i'm assuming i haven't been shafted (no pun intended )



incidental information, prolly irrelevant? rear diff is stuffed, so running in front wheel drive. shouldn't make any difference should it?

Running in front drive wont make a difference. Cant see how it could be different to you mates, Are you sure your mates arn't series 3 ?????

It has lowered the gearing from standard?????????????

Unless you stuffed up putting the selector forks in and your not getting LOW range???????????????????? at all.

Same gearboxes?

Same idle speed?

Same tyre size - i know you said they are both 31's - could be worth measuring them.

yeah, it's lower than before, i've got 5th gear back at 60k/hr, and low range is lower than it usta be, but definately not 83%

low range is lower than high range, so don't think the selector is stuffed. mate did the putting it back together, i did the handing of gears. he's a mechanic, and rebuilds stuff like this all the time, so can't see that happening. we checked that it'd engage low range before we put it back together too...

greg wrote:Same gearboxes?

Same idle speed?

Same tyre size - i know you said they are both 31's - could be worth measuring them.

as far as i know the gear boxes are the same... any easy way of checking?

his idle speed is higher if anything, and i think his tyres are slightly larger, so in theory he should crawl faster (at same revs) right?

The only thing it could be is your mate has a series 3.

Have you put the two cars next to each other and compared or are you going by feel.

stumped wrote:as far as i know the gear boxes are the same... any easy way of checking?

his idle speed is higher if anything, and i think his tyres are slightly larger, so in theory he should crawl faster (at same revs) right?

You are correct - i thought it would be faster too...

Okay, I don't know if it is possible to mess things up inside the x-fer case or not - but how about putting the car on jack stands (so tyres are off the ground), hook up the rear drive shaft, and check if the front and rear are spinning at the same speed. Perhaps you've done something odd with it inside and the front is still running in high range?*

* - i really don't expect this to be possible - but would be interested to see what the outcome is.

Thats defiantely a series on gear set .. ( in the pic's) .. fi you parked the two side by side and let em idle in 1st gear at 800rpm in low range, they "should" move at the same pace (if diff gears etc and tyres are the same) .. is his wide or narrow track ?? because its possible his has 3.9's or 4.1's in it ..

diff ratio's?

id say u would have 3.7's what are your mates?

does the calamini kit reduce it as much as rockhopper?

is your mates EFI?

redzook wrote:diff ratio's?

id say u would have 3.7's what are your mates?

does the calamini kit reduce it as much as rockhopper?

is your mates EFI?

All series ones regardless of make are 4.16 ..

Is only when you start to get into the fully custom cut gears that you can start getting odd ratios ...

Actually .. where is the "hybred" gear ?? (the one on the shaft) ??

greg wrote:

stumped wrote:as far as i know the gear boxes are the same... any easy way of checking?

his idle speed is higher if anything, and i think his tyres are slightly larger, so in theory he should crawl faster (at same revs) right?

You are correct - i thought it would be faster too...

Okay, I don't know if it is possible to mess things up inside the x-fer case or not - but how about putting the car on jack stands (so tyres are off the ground), hook up the rear drive shaft, and check if the front and rear are spinning at the same speed. Perhaps you've done something odd with it inside and the front is still running in high range?*

* - i really don't expect this to be possible - but would be interested to see what the outcome is.

he already said he can get low range ie. it is lower then when in 4wd high range

xtreem wrote:The only thing it could be is your mate has a series 3.

Have you put the two cars next to each other and compared or are you going by feel.

haven't driven em next to each other, gonna look at that tonight. but it was real noticeable feel, and when my mate was walking next to mine he told me to put it into low range (it already was)

he just bought black zook's soft top, sold as having series 1's... and high range feels pretty normal... so i don't think R3s, but could be wrong...

Ok,

I've got an idea... Let's use a bit of brain power here and do the maths...

Question...

Is the x-fer case the same one that was in the car before? If yes, then this will work.

Okay - hook up the speedo cable and go for a drive in high range...

Record the speedo reading the taco reading for a given speed.

Next up, put it in low range and repeat - record the speedo and taco reading for a given speed (same gear as last time please)...

Then we can work out how much lower than high range your low range is, and, if you know what the speedo / taco were at before you put these gears in, we can work out how much of a reduction you are running.

Right?

What do you think Stumped? Can you go and do this test?

both are wide tracks, so should both be 3.7....
both are 1.3 carby...


am i correct in assuming u can't put the wrong gears together? if i'd left the old low range gear in i don't think it would fit with the counter gear would it?? cos of the size difference

greg wrote:Ok,

I've got an idea... Let's use a bit of brain power here and do the maths...

Question...

Is the x-fer case the same one that was in the car before? If yes, then this will work.

Okay - hook up the speedo cable and go for a drive in high range...

Record the speedo reading the taco reading for a given speed.

Next up, put it in low range and repeat - record the speedo and taco reading for a given speed (same gear as last time please)...

Then we can work out how much lower than high range your low range is, and, if you know what the speedo / taco were at before you put these gears in, we can work out how much of a reduction you are running.

Right?

What do you think Stumped? Can you go and do this test?

we can do this or we can search

blackzook wrote:I'm running 5.12's with lockrites and have had no problems over the last 18 months.
I machined down the carrier and fitted a shrink ring then machined up some spacers to get the backlash adjusters rite.

I hear that you can buy a kit now so that they are a bolt in fit.

Too easy.

I paid $150.00 each at a wrecker in Sydney for the 5.12's total cost installed was about $450 for the pair.

altough i dont know if this is the same dude? was the person your mate brought your zuk off name Bruce?

greg wrote:Ok,

I've got an idea... Let's use a bit of brain power here and do the maths...

Question...

Is the x-fer case the same one that was in the car before? If yes, then this will work.

Okay - hook up the speedo cable and go for a drive in high range...

Record the speedo reading the taco reading for a given speed.

Next up, put it in low range and repeat - record the speedo and taco reading for a given speed (same gear as last time please)...

Then we can work out how much lower than high range your low range is, and, if you know what the speedo / taco were at before you put these gears in, we can work out how much of a reduction you are running.

Right?

What do you think Stumped? Can you go and do this test?

i don't know how revs to speed compared before... but i can see how fast i go at say 3 grand. is that gonna be good enuf?

This is the gear I am asking "where is it"

redzook wrote:we can do this or we can search

blackzook wrote:I'm running 5.12's with lockrites and have had no problems over the last 18 months.
I machined down the carrier and fitted a shrink ring then machined up some spacers to get the backlash adjusters rite.

I hear that you can buy a kit now so that they are a bolt in fit.

Too easy.

I paid $150.00 each at a wrecker in Sydney for the 5.12's total cost installed was about $450 for the pair.

altough i dont know if this is the same dude? was the person your mate brought your zuk off name Bruce?

dude was black zook, not blackzook (there are two, i checked)... and definately doesn't have lockers in it. 5.12s would be pretty noticeable in high range wouldn't it? don't think it's the same guy...

love_mud wrote:This is the gear I am asking "where is it"

yeah, got one, it's in the x-fer... don't think i messed that one up, cos i had to get bearings pressed off one onto the other. would that input shaft affect low range in a big way?

the original is larger.. 4.16 one is smaller cos the lower of the countershaft is larger... hence why i *think* i couldn't have stuffed up the low range gear

stumped wrote:

love_mud wrote:This is the gear I am asking "where is it"

yeah, got one, it's in the x-fer... don't think i messed that one up, cos i had to get bearings pressed off one onto the other. would that input shaft affect low range in a big way?

Thats good .. thats the gear that provides part of the reduction (12%) in high .. do you have a pic of that bit as well ??

I would say that it is a perception thing .. how high does your motor idle and does your buddy ride the clutch a bit ??

I was able to make my Zuk go pretty slow when I wanted .. with just 4.16's a 1.6 and some clucth lovin (not that I wnt slow all that often .. I was more of a bouncer tnan a crawler)

love_mud wrote:Thats good .. thats the gear that provides part of the reduction (12%) in high .. do you have a pic of that bit as well ??

I would say that it is a perception thing .. how high does your motor idle and does your buddy ride the clutch a bit ??

I was able to make my Zuk go pretty slow when I wanted .. with just 4.16's a 1.6 and some clucth lovin (not that I wnt slow all that often .. I was more of a bouncer tnan a crawler)

nah, only got pics of the stock stuff that i pulled out. comparing the pics from the manual and the calmini/rockhopper pages, i think it'll all only fit together one way.... the input shaft and low range gear is smaller, and the lower countershaft gear is larger

it wasn't just an idle thing (so not clutch)... when he was doing 3 grand in first his zook was crawling, 3 grand in mine and it was walking...

just did the speedo/rev thing... hard to tell accurately cos the speedo bounces all over the shop

@ 4000rpm in high first, speed around 20-23k/hr
@ 4000rpm in low first, speed around 5k/hr

don't know if that helps... greg?

stumped wrote:just did the speedo/rev thing... hard to tell accurately cos the speedo bounces all over the shop

@ 4000rpm in high first, speed around 20-23k/hr
@ 4000rpm in low first, speed around 5k/hr

don't know if that helps... greg?

Sounds like a 4.16 to me .. (about 3/4's slower .. )

hmm...

maybe i'm imagining things, maybe there's something different in my mates that i don't know 'bout.

from the sounds of it i couldn't have stuffed up the install, and if 3/4 is what it's sposed to be....

grrr. ahh well, i'll have a look at his again tonight, and will compare em more accurately. i'll let ya know what it was if we find out

thanks for the help guys

I am sayinig it sounds about right ... (from memory thats about how mine reved in low at those speeds ..) ..

83% reduction is from standard 1.3 case..if ya started with a 1.0 case its about 60% reduction....I think ya mates car just has better low down engine running ability...yours may need carby clean and tune uo, etc???? just a thawt

christover1 wrote:83% reduction is from standard 1.3 case..if ya started with a 1.0 case its about 60% reduction....I think ya mates car just has better low down engine running ability...yours may need carby clean and tune uo, etc???? just a thawt

yeah, maybe could be that... it balks when i put my foot down, which i'm guessing could be carby...

but.. that wouldn't affect speed/rev comparo would it? just how well it runs down low

stumped wrote:

christover1 wrote:83% reduction is from standard 1.3 case..if ya started with a 1.0 case its about 60% reduction....I think ya mates car just has better low down engine running ability...yours may need carby clean and tune uo, etc???? just a thawt

yeah, maybe could be that... it balks when i put my foot down, which i'm guessing could be carby...

but.. that wouldn't affect speed/rev comparo would it? just how well it runs down low

If the motor is gutless down low (ie wont idle at 700rpm without coughing and stumbling) you will need to keep it at higher revs to make it move .. making you go faster ..

Why don't you jack the rear up or remove the rear shaft, put gearbox in neutral, transfer in low range and count how many times you have to turn the jack shaft to turn the output 1 time, that will be your low range ratio