Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Hey all,

Posted a while ago about this problem - still looking for a solution. Any advice would be great.

Just bought a new cruiser for a daily so i can finally dedicate some time to finally sorting this out.

Following a solid axle swap, im having trouble with what feels like the front shaft binding. I dropped 3 degree crastor wedges in last night to see if helped - it didnt.

In regular 4H/L with th ehubs locked there is a fair amount of movement in the front center. i cant find any reason to suspect missing teeth on the center, although with the hubs locked it drives as though the center is caching on something with every rotation, very much like a busted center.

My guess at the moment is the hubs or the front shaft.

Any help would be great before i tear the front end down again next weekend.

Pictures showing the castor angle and correction wedges (3 degree) below:





Castor shims.




Thanks again in advance for any help.

Mitch

transfer case??
i must say im not an expert

hey mate,

thanks for that.

But the sound definitely comes from the diff. If i let the truck crawl along in low range with the hubs locked i can walk next to the truck and see the diff moving. sounds terrible.

Im guessing the sound/movement in the diff will also explain why the front shaft turns with the hubs locked even in 2WD.

cheers mate

Huh?
You're not serious right..?

If you have both hubs locked, your locking each wheel to the axle which is turning the inside of the diff. This turns the driveshaft in a reverse drive sense, and thus turns the internals of the transfer case.

Why are you leaving the hubs locked anyway?

The front shaft will always turn with the front hubs locked. Thats perfectly normal. Go lock the hubs on your cruiser and leave it in 2H and you'll see the front shaft spin too. The front shaft, front diff and front axles/cvs are all mechanically connected and will turn together no matter what if they are driven from either end. The only thing that engages and disengages are the front hubs and transfer case. All your transfer lever does is engage the transfer end of the front shaft to drive the front axles. If the lever is in 2H there is no engagement (or drive if you will) to the front shaft, put it in 4H/4L and it will engage/drive the front shaft. Locking the front hubs engages the CVs, axles, front diff and front shaft to the front wheels.

Basically:

Transfer case 2H and front hubs unlocked = no output to front shaft and no front wheel engaging to the axles. Front shaft, diff and axles do not move.

Transfer case 2H and front hubs locked = no output to front shaft and front wheels engaged to the axles. Axles, diff and front shaft will spin with wheels.

Transfer case 4H/4L and front hubs unlocked = output to front shaft and no front wheel engaging to the axles. Front shaft, diff and axles will spin but will not drive front wheels.

Transfer case 4H/4L and front hubs locked = output to front shaft and front wheels engaged to the axles. Front shaft, diff and axles will spin and drive front wheels.

As for your noise, your pinion angle looks pretty severe. Perhaps you need more caster (had a wheel alignment?) and/or a double cardan front shaft to stop the uni binding. Take the front shaft out and see if it makes the same noise with the front hubs locked.

like i said im no expert

does it only do this when you get to a certain speed, eg, it is quiet till you get to 60-70km/h or is the noise there from take off all the way through the gears/ speed.


Still could be a cracked tooth on the centre, one of the diffs i broke i snapped off 3-4 teeth and was making a simmiliar noise to what you are saying...

Drop the oil and have a look

Also when you say there is alot of play do you mean backlash, (grab the driveshaft flange with the hubs locked in spin clockwise, then anti clockwise and see how much play it has)
Also grab the flange and lift up/down- There should not be any verticle play in the pinion bearing.

Brad

Well what do you know

Thanks for clearing that up Ray.

Your advice to remove the front shaft and see if the noise is still there sounds good, ill give it a crack tonight.

cheers

What double cardan joint are you running?
If its from a IFS truck it won't have the travel in the joint like a
straight axle shaft.

Matt

hey matt,

I had a pair of custom driveshafts knocked up with 12 inch slip and a new double cardin joint on the transfer end of the front shaft.

Not sure what the new double cardin is like (compared to IFS) i might ring up and find out what they used.

Any idea? ill get picks tonight if im still having trouble after running it with out the driveshaft (ie the noise isnt coing from the diff)

cheers mate.

grab the slip joint end and see if it moves up and down or side to side. a little play there will give you some vibes. i think you might have too much slip hanging out as with you're front setup you will only need about 1.5 to 2 inches hanging out, you won't have the up travel to require all that spline showing.

I think the front shaft is way too short.

x3 that thing is crazy short

joeblow wrote:grab the slip joint end and see if it moves up and down or side to side. a little play there will give you some vibes. i think you might have too much slip hanging out as with you're front setup you will only need about 1.5 to 2 inches hanging out, you won't have the up travel to require all that spline showing.

Yay we are getting there now!

udlman wrote:I think the front shaft is way too short.

BINGO

YN67highlux wrote:x3 that thing is crazy short

x4

I was in no doubt from the first picture of the shaft... Well he will figure it out tonight when he pulls the shaft out hopefully....

Need much more contact in that shaft, it needs to be about halfway for proper contact.

Hi all

thanks for the interest in the thread and the suggestion for the length of the shaft.

Actually didnt get the chance to take it for a drive without the front shaft last night so i havent found out whether its the diff or the shaft.

Too short?? When i had them made i specified 12 inches of slip in the front shaft. Would that still leave me short of contact area on the shaft as it just looks extended in the picture?

When i take the truck for a drive without the front shaft, ill measure it up (and take some photos for you) and ask what you all think.

Once again, thanks for the help,

Mitch

Check out this thread http://www.4x4wire.com/toyota/tech/cvmod/

I have both cardan joints and the IFS one has less angular movement.

Just thought yours may be binding, could be wrong.

How much slip goes inside the shaft, half?

Cheers
Matt

mhanger wrote:Hi all

thanks for the interest in the thread and the suggestion for the length of the shaft.

Actually didnt get the chance to take it for a drive without the front shaft last night so i havent found out whether its the diff or the shaft.

Too short?? When i had them made i specified 12 inches of slip in the front shaft. Would that still leave me short of contact area on the shaft as it just looks extended in the picture?

When i take the truck for a drive without the front shaft, ill measure it up (and take some photos for you) and ask what you all think.

Once again, thanks for the help,

Mitch

when ordering or making a shaft you give them the measurements of the distance between flanges when the vehicle has weight on the suspension, then they will usualy leave an inch or two hanging out for compression, either you're measurements were wrong or the shop had little idea.

Thanks for that Joeblow and Frankenyota - much appreciated.

Had a propper look last night for the first time and also spoke to the blokes that made the shafts.

The shaft has a 12 inch slip and only about 1/3 of it is extending out, so im safe over there.

The double cardin end of the shaft is what seems to be making all the noise and creating all the momement I really didnt think the driveline angle was so severe as to cause such a reaction.

The bloke i forst spoke when i rang up about the problem had no clue what he was on about and told me "there was only one kind of double cardin i the world" and that the shaft isnt the problem. so i was put onto someone else who said i should bring it in to have it checked out. He assured me that an IFS equiveland wasnt used for the double cardin.

Anyone had trouble like this with a double cardin? Even when i removed it I found that even turning it through by hand made it click and creek, and i it jammed up every third of fouth rotation.

What is a common solution to a prblem like this??

thanks again,

Mitch

Yes a worn joint in the D/C can cause a noise like that. Do you lube all 5 grease points on the shaft regularly? Yes 5. 1 at the lower uni, 1 at the slip joint, 1 on each upper uni and 1 and the centre pivot of the d/c joint. That last one is the one most commonly missed and lack of grease there causes the centre pivot pin bearings to run dry and wear a groove into the pin. Yours might be ok and just need some grease. Otherwise it will need to have the pin flange replaced and a new centre pivot kit fitted (basically overhaul the centre pivot). Been through this recenty with a 60 series d/c joint. If your shaft is not that old you may get it done under warranty?

Het Ray

Thanks mate,

5 I found 3 in the dark and the 4th on the slip joint, completely missed the one in the center pivot. I hadnt even touched the one on the slip joint with the grease gun and i could see something was wrong. so i turned it slightly (with my fingers) and it sheared clean off! wasnt happy at all. Its a brand new shaft, has maybe seen a kilometer of driving in L4 (most of it in my driveway trying to suss things out).

Havent greased them yet, dropped and broke the grease gun when i shat myself in frustration last night. so ill grease them up today and see how if it takes the sound away. Ill have to drop the shaft off next week if it doesnt solve the problem.

Thanks again Ray, really appreciate it, hopefull this sorts the problem out. Would be kinda funny to find out a little grease solved all my problems...........but then again a little lube can solve just about anything

Looking at your pic, id almost say you put the castor wedges in backwards, its rotated the pinion down to the ground; would you not want to rotate the pinion upwards to get a better aligning between the output flange and the pinion flange?

hey mate,

No they're in the right way - fat end to the front to allow the flange to rotate up to the transfer.

The problem is no longer castor. its the double cardin on the transfer case end of the shaft. thanks though.

Cheers mate

I can assure you that it is movement in the D/C as i had the excat same issue with and 03 Hilux.

Got a new shaft and "presto" no noise, but it set me back 1800 + GST.

Hurts everytime i remember!!!

Mig wrote:I can assure you that it is movement in the D/C as i had the excat same issue with and 03 Hilux.

Got a new shaft and "presto" no noise, but it set me back 1800 + GST.

Hurts everytime i remember!!!

they touched your private wee wee area

id go a worn D/C also mate..id be getting that checked....what type of cruiser did you get?