Outer Limits 4x4 Board

I was in jaycar the other day having a look at the High Energy Ignition kit they have. It uses your points as a trigger input and then an electronic circuit to supply the spark to the plugs for a consistant duration.

They also had another kit that would run with this kit. It was a microprocessor controlled kit that allowed you to adjust the timing and dwell from a keypad inside the vehicle,... i presume while the engine is running.

The box stated that you could have two "stored" configurations for timing. This would be ideal for me, as i am running duel fuel and would like the ability to advance or retard ignition.

Has anyone had any experience with this kit, or any like it...

your thoughts would be appreciated

I used the HEI kit in a Charade for a few years, seemed to work well.

I'm interested in the timing control kit for my Feroza, but haven't been able to find much info on it. The two settings are for dual fuel like you want.

I have the HEI kit on my TB42. works a treat great value for the money. just make sure you seal it properly. didn't bother with the adjustable add-on bcause it seemed to require too much mod for my ability!

theres a aftermarket hei setup on ebay
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=32624&item=2478627961&rd=1

I'm with Murcod - the HEI kit works well on a points vehicle. My old Galant was always burning out points, but from the day I put the kit in I never had another problem with ignition, and the car started much better.

I looked at the adjustable ignition for the Galant, but it got assassinated by a wayward Camry and that was the end of that!

The 'Gabba Jaycar store pulled out the notes from a kit and copied it for me to take home, and I think one of the magazines (Silicon Chip/Electronics Australia) put out a description in one of their "Projects" magazines. I believe that whoever originally designed it has modified the program a little since it was first released, so you can have two different "slopes" on each advance curve.

Have you tried Google for more info?

Scott

havent tried google as yet. the add on kit had a keypad if its the same one you are talking about.. I saw an "automotive kits" magazine from silicon chip while i was in jaycar last week. i was in a hurry and didnt have a look through it..

it may be in there...



ill definitely get the HEI kit, and try to find out more info on the other...

got a hold of the silicon chip magazine with the programmable ignition circuit.


It does allow for two setups. They are limited in that they are not actually curves, but 3 plots over your vehicles rev range. You basically program in the min RPM, mid range RPM and MAX Rpm, and it generates a "curve" from that data. You also can set the default dwell angle, and there is a rev limiting option as well as tacho output.

They can be triggered from points, hall effect or reluctor setups.


You have to clamp down the mechanical centrifugal advance within the dizzy and also setup a vaccumm switch on the vaccumm advance unit.

The mods dont look that difficult to implement. I am unsure as to the performance increase you can expect from this unit. The vaccumm and mechanical advance units on the distributor you have, are analog in design, and if working properly, should produce an advance curve. (as opposed to the plot system with the kit). Whether its the correct curve for you engine or not is another matter.

I think i will fit the HEI kit first and see if anyone else has this unit installed.

the_smoo wrote:It does allow for two setups. They are limited in that they are not actually curves, but 3 plots over your vehicles rev range. You basically program in the min RPM, mid range RPM and MAX Rpm, and it generates a "curve" from that data.

Only three timing points and it plots a curve from that?! Sounds very dodgy....

You get to program minimum advance, RPM at which advance starts to increase, a mid RPM & advance, and a max RPM with final advance. The three points will even allow you to retard your ignition again as revs rise - although I don't understand why you'd want to.

If you organise a "vac" switch you can set the amount of vacuum advance you want (only on or off - that bit could be better) You also get to store two complete sets of data, so you can quickly and easily compare changes.

The original "analogue" weights system may be able to give a slightly more "sophisticated" curve, but how are you going to change it? Throw in new springs and try them? How easily can you do back to back comparisons?

With the weights system advance starts once centrifugal force overcomes spring force + stiction. Max advance can only be set by a fixed stop. As the springs age/heat up the advance curve will change.

For tuning a modified (non-injected) vehicle I'd prefer to have the kit. For a standard motor I wouldn't bother.

Cheers,

Scott

The advance curve can be changed via the weights and springs- a workshop a friend owns used to have the proper machine to spin the distributor up and graph the advance curve etc. You could make the changes and then spin it up again and check the changes.

The reason I'm interested is because Feroza's have a common problem with detonation- so with a kit like this I could experiment with different timing curves and see if it helps. I've already got a spare distributor ready for mods to be done. They already have a Hall Effect pick up in them so in theory it should be a relatively easy conversion.

i have been pondering since my last post.....

heres my limited understanding of why you need to advance ignition.

You need to start the "burn" of the air/ fuel mixture so that combustion has completed by the time the piston is somewhere on the down stroke.

The "burn time" dictates when you need to trigger the spark. From as far as i can tell, this time would be relatively fixed. At all rpm, there is a certain amount of fuel/air mixture in the cylinder, and "theoretically", this mixture takes a certain amount of time to burn, no matter the rpm.

The problem arises that as the rpm increases, this burn time remains the same, so the burn finishes somewhere after the mechanical advantage of the down stroke of the piston. (i read somewhere that the flame chases the piston down.)

Hence you need to advance the ignition to start the "burn" earlier.


If you were to finish the burn at the same point (in degrees) on the down stroke, then the amount of degrees you have to advance the spark is linear and not a curve which is great for the kit......

BUT..... as you advance the spark, the fuel/air mixture is not as compressed as it was before which means its not as hot which means it affects the time it takes to burn...

Is this correct or am i speaking out of my poorly pred donkey?

and.. you wouldnt touch this system with a barge pole if you had fuel injection....

the_smoo wrote:and.. you wouldnt touch this system with a barge pole if you had fuel injection....

.... not all EFI cars have the timing controlled by the EFI computer - eg the Feroza is a classic example: EFI controls the fuel delivery, but the timing is done by vacuum advance and weights, springs (and mirrors.... )

Advancing the timing will give more power providing you don't start getting detonation.

i assumed (wrongly) that all efi vehicles were computer controlled.

what then controls the signal to the injectors..

is there some sort electronics between the distributor and injectors..?

The distributor igniter signal is fed to the EFI computer (as well as the coil negative) and must be what gives the EFI computer a reference signal for the injector pulse? But the EFI computer doesn't control the timing advance at all- wish it did....

gee... that is bogus....

almost like teasing you having a computer in there for the injectors and then relying on old fashioned points to do the timing.

i am installing the HEI system first. i will run that and get it sorted.. Later on i want to tinker with the programmable ignition....

At $60 bucks, if its ordinary... then ill ditch it.. same price as a tank of fuel nowadays anyway....

double post

the_smoo wrote:gee... that is bogus....

almost like teasing you having a computer in there for the injectors and then relying on old fashioned points to do the timing.

It's actually not points- fully electronic (apart from the advance mechanism) with Hall effect pick up.

Make sure you post up results when get the programmable timing module!

i have had a bit of recent renewed interest in this topic.. I have read about the kit and am probably going to put it together in the next month or so..

whilst i will predominantly run the 40 on gas, i dont want to have to crab home on petrol if i run out..

what i am after is the timing advance curves for a 308. both standard, and for gas..

i cant find them anywhere on the net.. I dont want to have to get it setup, and then stuff around for hours, trying to get two curves that run ok

.. I want to get some curves/data that are in the ball park first, and then start from there.

anyone know where i can pick this info up?

I can't help answer your question....... but I have been doing some research on the programmable timing side of things and found some good info.

First of all, while the Jaycar (Silicon Chip) kit appears to do the job, I found a post on the Silicon Chip site where even they (the designers) say it's a bit crude to use on a car (!? ).

Anyway I came across another device that you can buy for $330 all up and it is far superior It's called a Deltamax programmable ignition system and is bought ready made and comes with cables to hook up to a PC for programming. Not only does it have two switchable curves, but it also can be prgrammed every 800rpm for timing, has a programmable rev limit, can have a coolant temp input to vary the timing with temp, and can use a MAP sensor input for vacuum advance. Altogether it sounds like a decent bit of gear.

I Emailed the company earlier today asking for more info (their site doesn't give too much info....); but have since found some other sites with specs on it.

Anyway here are some links:

- this one has the Jaycar kit manual online in a couple of zip files (I haven't had a look at it yet)

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/transmic/gbprog2.htm

- here's the Delta website

http://www.delta-digital.com.au/Deltamax%20Info.htm

- here's a review with a bit more info

http://www.alpga.asn.au/documents/Dec03%20IGNITION.pdf

- here's another site with more specs on it

http://www.sprintparts.triumphowners.co ... eID=480073

That should help you out a bit.

If I had a couple of hundred $$$ spare I'd be ordering the Deltamax.

thanks for the info..

i was looking at the deltamax only yesterday as i was looking around for timing curves..

It looks the goods, but a bit rich at $330.. im only running a stinky 308..


I know that the timing has to be advanced for LPG.. but is that advance fixed over the rev range?

ie, are the 2 advance "curves" (one for gas, one for petrol) the same shape, but just "shifted" with respect to each other..

if thats the case, then why couldnt you just add in a delay between the points output and HEI module.. if you know what i mean.

Then you could tune the engine for gas, then switch in the delay when you want to go back to petrol..

does what i am saying make any sense

I don't really know for sure but... I imagine you might be right about a fixed amount of advance being needed over your petrol curve. I imagine the gas would have a different burn rate and different (higher) octane, so the advance you need might be a fixed amount??

I've just had a quick read of the Jaycar instructions from that site and the more I read the less I like it. You do need the HEI kit to drive the programmable timing module because it performs some signal conditioning and supplies a regulated 5v output to it (thought I might be able to get away without it as I've already got a Hall effect type pickup already in my distributor). They also talk about having to modify the rotor tip to elongate it in one direction for the kit to function.

Sounds very dodgy...

I'll post up any info I get on the Deltamax (my favorite by a long shot now! )

i read about that rotor lengthening bit..

doesnt excite me too much either..

whilst just researching about vacuum and mechanical advance, i just found out that my vacuum not being taken from a "ported" source.

could be why the bugger is so hard to tune!

The "rotor lengthening" is compensating for the massive fixed mechanical advance the system runs. Essentially, you determine the maximum advance you need anywhere, dial that in with the distributor and then the electronics retards the firing of the coil to "correct" the advance back. Follow me so far?

Because the rotor is designed to be pointing at the correct lead wire when the coil fires, but the electronics is actually delaying the trigger point, the rotor is no longer pointing in the correct direction when the spark actually comes. The rotor modification is required to fix this "error."

I had a similar problem once, for a number of months. I bought a second-hand car then rebuilt the motor and bought a new distributor cap. I didn't realise the dizzy wasn't the original for the car, so the new cap had the leads mounted approximately 30 degrees away from where the rotor was pointing when the points opened. Ran well for most of the time, just got occasional misfires under high revs/high load. Finally found the problem when I noticed the rotor button had charring on one side - where the spark was actually jumping!

Cheers,

Scott

I've received the full installation manual for the Deltamax.

If anyone is interested in having a read PM me your Email address and I'll forward it on. Will post some comments on it's operation compared to the Jaycar kit once I've read through it all myself.

Have had a quick read of the Deltamax manual and it's very impressive.

You can even enter calibration tables for the MAP sensor for the vac advance and Temp sender- so I could use the factory EFI items on the Feroza with it. The Temp sensor input can be used to retard timing in hot weather- exactly what I need; and in effect giving you a degree of 3D mapping for the timing curves. BTW both of these inputs are optional use and can be switched off if not wanted.

It gives two switchable curves (designed for petrol or gas) and comes with the software and cable to hook it up to a PC or laptop to upload the curves. Dwell can be set to what you want, as can the rev limit.

It's designed for use with a Hall Effect or reluctor distributor pick up, but can be used with points (may have problems though) and there's a model for use with optical pick ups too.

The curve switching is desgned to be hooked up to the gas solenoid, so it automatically changes timing when the gas is switched on.