Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Hello friends. Just wondering if anyone knows where in Aus (or even America?) i could get some coil over shocks. Just after prices and some more info on them before comitting to doing anything silly!! Thanks heaps

Google and the search function are your friends

Depends on what you want Liam

Kings or FOA

FOA are dirt cheap atm, and you should be able to get what you want. Best option, is to wait to see what our dollar is doing before getting your bits from the US, otherwise, look local/second hand.

What are you after, and what size are you looking for?

SuperCruiser wrote:Google and the search function are your friends

really, what can you come up with with either of the above?

righto having a look around, and for what you do (this is what i see in your pics and read), these are going to be your best bet. I know you don't race, so these will do the job you want.

Your just after a bit more flex, comfort, and control over your front/rear end, at a minimal cost?

You really need to sit down and work out what you need from the car, your link set up, and your lengths. And then shop to that. Have a good look around at what others have done, and then, decide to follow them.

Have a look here, and this is the start.

http://f-o-a.com/shop/index.php

Not sure if you have seen this but check it out, If its what you want, follow it

http://forum.mudrhino.com.au/viewtopic.php?t=2534

thanks heaps mate... love ya work. I have sent FOA an email already, after rough prices etc. Im under the impression you can pretty much get these things to suit your needs? Eg: Length, softness, ride height etc? Thanks again Reddo!

get it up there wrote:thanks heaps mate... love ya work. I have sent FOA an email already, after rough prices etc. Im under the impression you can pretty much get these things to suit your needs? Eg: Length, softness, ride height etc? Thanks again Reddo!

well that's the impression, FOA will do everything your looking for and more, and costs are cheap, even more so, since the dollar is going up.

If you want to buy, wait anther month at least, as were gaining on the US atm.

All the above means nothing, because its how and where you place your links, and mounts etc. What you need to work out is what you want form the car, and how much drop/travel, you want from it. Thats the hard part, because your normally going to be the first. Hit pirate up, and start listing what others have done.

The above link to Mudrhino, has a A frame, but a 4 link will be stronger, because of the extra mounting point, and easier to install. I'll call my great mate Hayden up, and get him to comment on this, as he welded up that zook (see if he as anything to offer).


BUT WHAT DO YOU WANT FROM IT ALL, WHATCHA AFTER????

Couple of things I will say;
Its a body off job, and,
I've been around a while on here, so when someone says search, its true, but also, i did one, and it came up with fawk all on on outers, so tell em to shut the fawk up!

What are you after form your set up?

get it up there wrote:thanks heaps mate... love ya work. I have sent FOA an email already, after rough prices etc. Im under the impression you can pretty much get these things to suit your needs? Eg: Length, softness, ride height etc? Thanks again Reddo!

Your impression is a bit off. The coilovers come in various lengths and body diamiters, then you have to work out the valving, coil rates (primary/secondary/helper if needed), coil frequency, set ride heigh. You also need to design and fabricate out a decent link setup which is just as important as the coil over tuning. Etc etc. To do properly is is not a small job, and you have to work out the settings and design to get what you need. A coil over is just a tube with some bits inside it and some coils and seats outside it. Once you get the basic unit its all in the setup.

There are calculators for coil rate and valving rate that will get you roughly started, pretty sure on pirate there is one to download. Have a look at that to get a rough idea of coil rates and valving.

Layto....

lay80n wrote:

get it up there wrote:thanks heaps mate... love ya work. I have sent FOA an email already, after rough prices etc. Im under the impression you can pretty much get these things to suit your needs? Eg: Length, softness, ride height etc? Thanks again Reddo!

Your impression is a bit off. The coilovers come in various lengths and body diamiters, then you have to work out the valving, coil rates (primary/secondary/helper if needed), coil frequency, set ride heigh. You also need to design and fabricate out a decent link setup which is just as important as the coil over tuning. Etc etc. To do properly is is not a small job, and you have to work out the settings and design to get what you need. A coil over is just a tube with some bits inside it and some coils and seats outside it. Once you get the basic unit its all in the setup.

There are calculators for coil rate and valving rate that will get you roughly started, pretty sure on pirate there is one to download. Have a look at that to get a rough idea of coil rates and valving.

Layto....

Layton is 100% correct here.

And that's what i was getting at, its a lot of work, and the job might be able to be done with a nice simple coil conversion, with good quality long travel shocks...

You need to work out what you want, and then ask and research your questions.

Don't be put off though, if this is what you want, you need to read up about it, and work it out

One thing is for sure, the boys off pirate have done it backwards..

Try these out. Little bit more in cost but a far better product

http://www.ballisticfabrication.com/Bal ... c_110.html

4 link calculator from pirate under this tread

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=204893


Some homework right here, read this tread and get your head around it

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthre ... =caculator

Dont forget the coilover bible

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavist ... rs/Part_1/

nottie wrote:Dont forget the coilover bible

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavist ... rs/Part_1/

you will grow a beard by the time you've finished the above links

Box of asprin and a glass of milk is good before reading the coilover bible.

nottie wrote:Box of asprin and a glass of milk is good before reading the coilover bible.

Roger that I could not find it before, but thankfully you did. The US is too "involved" in gaining perfection. I suggest, a good anti squat, and then placing the coil over in, and driving/tuning it.

The zook liam has is VERY capable, hes after a good comfortable ride now...

There is another option. I got my Kings coilovers from Rohan Canavan in melle, all valving spring rates etc were taken care of by him. Maybe not the cheapest option but an easy way to get good results. So far i've only put the rear ones in, the result are worth the work and money.

Woah... there is alot involved hey!! Thanks guys, this is excellent!! Your right Reddo, im after more comfort mainly. The rear flexes sweet at the moment, BUT to stop axle wrap, and for the extra strength (im running lux diffs SOA, 35's, twin lockers) i put in hilux front springs into the Rear of my zook. These have prooved to be nice and strong, BUT there bloody stiff!! I could put different springs in, but then i would need a anti wrap bar, if this is the case i may aswell go the extra step and go coils. The front is nice and soft (zook RUF and drop shackles).. and flexes really good, so its only the back im looking at changing for now. I do however have at home a vitara rear housing. Another optioon is making a custom vitara coil setup. Eg, using the vitara coils etc on the sierra housing, and making a 4 link set up with this. Just another option, which might be easier??

I will give you something else to think about. Have a look at the hybrid coilover/air shock.

Jason

locktup4x4 wrote:I will give you something else to think about. Have a look at the hybrid coilover/air shock.

Jason

same in real world, just the air pressure is adjustable to affect your rebound rates, eassssssyyyyyy, correct?

get it up there wrote:Woah... there is alot involved hey!! Thanks guys, this is excellent!! Your right Reddo, im after more comfort mainly. The rear flexes sweet at the moment, BUT to stop axle wrap, and for the extra strength (im running lux diffs SOA, 35's, twin lockers) i put in hilux front springs into the Rear of my zook. These have prooved to be nice and strong, BUT there bloody stiff!! I could put different springs in, but then i would need a anti wrap bar, if this is the case i may aswell go the extra step and go coils. The front is nice and soft (zook RUF and drop shackles).. and flexes really good, so its only the back im looking at changing for now. I do however have at home a vitara rear housing. Another optioon is making a custom vitara coil setup. Eg, using the vitara coils etc on the sierra housing, and making a 4 link set up with this. Just another option, which might be easier??

Put it like this, your set up is for a hilux, but simple lacks the body and more importantly the weight to make it work, so its stiff as a mothfunkle. Puting it simple.

this is IMO only, but anyone is open to take a stab here;
you need to decide your link set up in the arse end, and work out your anti squat. The more +ve you have, the more bounce your going to get, back it off, and the more wheel spin your going to get.
Its the same in my VL, i have high pinion angle for traction off the line, rmp about 3grand, and its launches very very quick, any higher in the rpm, it bangs away like a Scanas, any higher it spins the wheels... Because its a SWB, your going to get pig root quicker than a LWB. SO, +3 (taking a stab here) will give you good traction to the point of pig rooting. Its what i found with my old SWB, it was awsome in the Mud, good torque to weight ratio, and un stop able, trouble is, i suffered on hill climbs, i could not use high rmp to climb, it would root the hill and suffer and smash shit.

I think you know what you need to do, is a good simple five link rear end, with soft (and I mean shagged coils) coils and good shocks will give you what you want, and 5 stage adjustable will give you the load carrying capabilities your after. But, get long lower arms. What you will find, is that you gain the spatic flex you want, and comfort ride. I remember telling you in your thread....

A frame if your a tight arse, it will do whatcaha want...

From my perspective, your never going to use a coil over to its full potential, but you will get everything you want out of a middle of the range, long armed, simple coil system......

if your really tight, weld in the trac bar, and go for soft leaf springs. Would i do it, nahhh, coils are practical a reliable , and that's what you want.

Thanks heaps matey!! This is sounding like a plan... i already have rancho 9000's with are already inboarded.. So, the next thing to work out.. 4 or 5 link?? And should i use vitara coils, or another type?? Very interesting to read the other stuff you just wrote about.. thanks again

Bear in mind get it up there that you've already got lots of things working against you

Very short wheelbase
High COG
Tall ride height.
The best link setup in the world can't change those things.

Also, the moment you lower the spring rate in the rear, the front will stop flexing until the rear fully flexes. That's going to suck.

At the moment, you have a soft front end and a stiff rear end. That's the preferable setup for stable and predictable climbing. what you are planning will reverse that, and it tends to unbalance the car.

With regard to vitara springs - bear in mind these are only designed for about 7-8" of travel maximum. Also consider that on a sierra chassis the springs have to go inboard of the rails, and that leads to very low roll stiffness, especially with a 4 link setup or an a frame. I'm going to almost guarantee that you'll need a rear swaybar to make the front work properly with that setup.

I'm coiling the back of my LWB at the moment. I'm using radius arms from the front of a range rover, upside down for clearance, vitara springs, a range rover panhard rod and OME N76 shocks. I'm deliberately using the radius arm design, even though I'm using a vitara rear diff with provision for an A frame because I WANT the roll stiffness the radius arms give me. I'm not trying to exceed maybe 10" of travel - well within the scope of rover arms and lifted vitara springs.

However, I'm also stretching my wheelbase to almost 100", and my car is low - I'm only running about 3" of compression travel a ride height, so my arms are quite flat and the angle change on them is small. That's going to be a challenge based on matching your front ride height and wheelbase.

With regard to coil overs - on a sierra they are going to be massive overkill, and quite hard to package - they'll come up through your floor in the rear, kinda killing interior room, and making for lots of hassle to close it all up - especially with a hardtop in Tassie, and that's before you play with valving, spring combinations etc. sure, on a comp car designed for huge hits and very high speed they might be great, but in a sierra I can't see the point.

Otherwise all the other stuff raised has been very sensible advice and many of the reasons that despite playing with sierras for 15 years, I'm only just starting to play with coils, and I'm cheating at that by using radius arms.

It's definitely going to be a body off job, and I'd be starting with a LWB so you can get the link lengths right and make the most of the advantages of coils.

IMHO the vitara setup is too short in the links, has excessive antisquat, and sits way too low to be useful for you. Also, it relies on the springs being outside the chassis to gain acceptable roll stiffness. Likewise Range Rover. Cars with rear A frames really have to run the springs outside the chassis to have any hope of being balanced, or else run heavy antisway bars to limit roll.

Just some thoughts.

PS I'd be building some upside down Caltrac traction bars run off the rear shackles first- these should allow you to de-rate your leaves enough to fix the ride. If that looks like too much work and too much experimentation, I don't think you're ready to coils. Not having a go, but there's lots of scope to stuff it up.

Steve.

i was ready to type a big reply BUT then i read steves! no need now he pretty much said it all

unless there are specific details or requirements? if you are serious about coils, then beware! a budget of $3-5k as a minimum to do the job fully and a few good mates who are great fabricators are needed as well. If you are still set on doing this then there are plenty of options available, but please give us some VERY detailled info of you requirements to best help.

Read and understand all of the info in the Pirate link BEFORE you decide on anything. There is a shit load to it and if you don't do your research you could end up with a pig that you can't drive!
Roll centres, anti squat, under steer etc etc aren't just important of an race car, they are just (if not more) as important off road.

thanks heaps peoples.. im also looking into doing a 4 link rear - using 4 runner springs or something similar. Still got heaps of researching to do yet.. hmmmmm. Thanks again

Stop fretting about the springs. They are irrelevant. It doesn't matter what you use for springs - coil over, air, coil, leaf, whatever- It's ALL in the geometry. Once you are on links, the springs are just a means of holding the car up- they have very little to do with its behaviour.

The 4 Runner/Surf rear end design is quite good, but pay attention to how far below the chassis the rear links mount - there's a reason for that.

I'm going to say you need to pull LOTS of height out of your car to get good link geometry. It's possible to build a sierra on your size tyres with no suspension lift at all. The lower your car is, the easier all you calculations will become and the better the car will perform.

Steve.

hmm interesting... I'm going to mount my vit springs on the outside of my chassis on the front and possible coil overs tilted towards the cab in the rear... but this is on lux diffs...

hhmmmm.. good idea. Im on lux diffs to!!

you sound like me a yr and a half ago.
shit ride on leafs. take some out and get too much wrap.

i went the 5 link set up with 2 long (35") lower arms, one upper and a panard.
im still fine tuning/ breaking/ strengthining stuff but it has been the best thing i have done.
im also spoa ruff front on lux/ bundy diffs.
with you still being SWB and full body i dont like your chances of going triangled 4 link. i have looked and looked and there is just too much crap under there to do it easily, in not running a fuel tank either.
if you do descide to go 5 link, make everthing strong, there is alot of force put on mounts.