Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Since my 5l V8 is just about back to together after being rebuilt I need to deciede which transmission to use. Will be sticking with 33" tyres for around town, and the 35" krawlers for offroad, so want to keep the diff gears at the std. 4.1. I know I'd prefer the manual for around town, but I've always hated using the clutch when offroad. I've also never owned a auto 4x4, so have no idea whats thats like.

Currently in the 40 is the std. 4 speed manual (3.555 first gear) with a split transfer case (1.959 low) (both fully rebuilt last year).

In the doner MWB cruiser there is a Marks kit mating the 5l V8 to the std. toyota A440F auto (2.950 first gear) and split transfer case (2.488 low) (both of unkown condition at the moment).

If I bolt up the split case from the auto onto my manual the low range gearing goes from 1.959 to 2.488 (30% reduction). Which will get me below std. gearing on the 35s.

If I run the auto, it will be all std. gearing, but not sure if the torque convertor factor makes up for the 30% low range reduction I would miss out on?

If running the manual I need to sell the auto and marks kit for hopefully the price of buying the marks kit to suit the manual. From then on the swap into the 40 is a piece of piss.

If I run the auto, I'm up for a custom cross member, trans tunnel mods, driveshafts altered, sort out the shifters, pedals etc. So a lot more stuffing around.


So basically want to know, is the auto worth the extra effort and $$$ over sticking to the manual which is easier and cheaper to do, and has the bonus of 30% lower low range?

Also can anyone confirm that the auto split case will bolt up to my manual?

I would go the auto with the split case it will give you the lowest ratio.

Auto

Just give it all to me. $10.50.




**edit** Sorry thought I was in Chit Chat for a minute. Go the auto. MOd all the bits, Sell the rest of the bits... to me $10.50

Auto with Gear's!

As profoundly useful as these 4 posts have been, I hope someone on here who has some real world experience and tech advice finds there way to this thread and manages to address some if any of the questions I have asked.

TWISTY wrote:Since my 5l V8 and the 35" krawlers for offroad, so want to keep the diff gears at the std. 4.1.

In the doner MWB cruiser there is a Marks kit mating the 5l V8 to the std. toyota A440F auto (2.950 first gear) and split transfer case (2.488 low) (both of unkown condition at the moment).

30:1 is not low enough!! 45-50:1 in an auto is a great starting point...... if you are going to drive it offroad.

1MadEngineer wrote:

TWISTY wrote:Since my 5l V8 and the 35" krawlers for offroad, so want to keep the diff gears at the std. 4.1.

In the doner MWB cruiser there is a Marks kit mating the 5l V8 to the std. toyota A440F auto (2.950 first gear) and split transfer case (2.488 low) (both of unkown condition at the moment).

30:1 is not low enough!! 45-50:1 in an auto is a great starting point...... if you are going to drive it offroad.

I would definetley like it to be a lot lower then the options i listed above, and if xfer gears for the 40 were the price of ones for a lux it'd already have them, but at almost $2k there is plenty of others things I'd prefer to do first.

So is all the extra effort and $$$ to run the cruiser auto with a crawl of 30:1 worth it (easier/more enjoyable offroad) over the cheap and simple to install manual/auto-xfer option with a crawl ratio of 36:1?

At the moment (before v8 instal) its at 28.5:1 which seems to run ok with the 35s on.

1MadEngineer wrote:

TWISTY wrote:Since my 5l V8 and the 35" krawlers for offroad, so want to keep the diff gears at the std. 4.1.

In the doner MWB cruiser there is a Marks kit mating the 5l V8 to the std. toyota A440F auto (2.950 first gear) and split transfer case (2.488 low) (both of unkown condition at the moment).

30:1 is not low enough!! 45-50:1 in an auto is a great starting point...... if you are going to drive it offroad.

30:1 in an auto would have to be better than 36:1 in a manual though wouldnt it?

That seems to be what I have been told and given that then imo the 30:1 in an auto is the better of the two situations in my novice opinion anyway?

30-1 in the auto is prob ok for normal offroad work. But as soon as you need more your stuffed. At least with the manual you can slip the clutch. Although not ideal it works. With the auto you dont have any other options.

You prob also need to concider the fact you have no idea on the condition of the auto so this could add lots more $.

Personaly if i was in your situation i would get the Auto T case behind the 4spd and drive it. At least then your only up for the adapters. You allready know the condition of your 4spd.

Grabing second gear will be a lot more fun also

Hey Twisty
With the a440 when you put a v8 infront it will run hot you can run more coolers but that doesnt fix the problem rodney at wholesale autos does a bigger converter that drops the stall speed that fixes the temp issues i would recomend a temp guage to keep a eye on things
The a440 is very sluggish auto you can fix that with a different valve body
Running 35's with out gearing the auto will have no compression braking and low low wont be very low marks gears are good but cost a bit
The out put shaft wears on the transfer input gear the shaft can be rebuilt but i have broken two one with the stocko 6 and one with a chevy
cheers chevj62

I have the H55F in the 60 series with a first gear of 4.84 and transfer of 1.96. I have 4.56 gears (35" tyres), so my crawl ratio is 43:1. I find this very good offroad. A little lower would be nicer though. I think I would struggle with the crawl ratio of the auto. I know you already have the auto, but if you are going to the trouble to make it fi, maybe you may as well make a 5 speed fit, that way you will get the 1st gear crawler.

Are you sure the transfer case gears are 2.48 and not 2.28? I was led to believe that the 2.48 gears never made it to Aus. I know that 88/89 60 series had the 2.28 gears in the auto model.

BTW, if you do have 2.48 gears in the transfer case and decide not to use them, I'll buy them off you!

RUFF wrote:30-1 in the auto is prob ok for normal offroad work. But as soon as you need more your stuffed. At least with the manual you can slip the clutch. Although not ideal it works. With the auto you dont have any other options.

You prob also need to concider the fact you have no idea on the condition of the auto so this could add lots more $.

Personaly if i was in your situation i would get the Auto T case behind the 4spd and drive it. At least then your only up for the adapters. You allready know the condition of your 4spd.

Grabing second gear will be a lot more fun also

Thats kinda what I was worried about.....

Other thing I need to confirm is if the auto split T case will bolt up to my manual?

chevj62 wrote:Hey Twisty
With the a440 when you put a v8 infront it will run hot you can run more coolers but that doesnt fix the problem rodney at wholesale autos does a bigger converter that drops the stall speed that fixes the temp issues i would recomend a temp guage to keep a eye on things
The a440 is very sluggish auto you can fix that with a different valve body
Running 35's with out gearing the auto will have no compression braking and low low wont be very low marks gears are good but cost a bit
The out put shaft wears on the transfer input gear the shaft can be rebuilt but i have broken two one with the stocko 6 and one with a chevy
cheers chevj62

Cheers for the info mate. The doner MWB had a big cooler fitted, but yeah, um unsure if any other mods were done to the auto. I do recall the convertor having a auto shops name written on it but.

Sixty's Guy wrote:I have the H55F in the 60 series with a first gear of 4.84 and transfer of 1.96. I have 4.56 gears (35" tyres), so my crawl ratio is 43:1. I find this very good offroad. A little lower would be nicer though. I think I would struggle with the crawl ratio of the auto. I know you already have the auto, but if you are going to the trouble to make it fi, maybe you may as well make a 5 speed fit, that way you will get the 1st gear crawler.

Are you sure the transfer case gears are 2.48 and not 2.28? I was led to believe that the 2.48 gears never made it to Aus. I know that 88/89 60 series had the 2.28 gears in the auto model.

BTW, if you do have 2.48 gears in the transfer case and decide not to use them, I'll buy them off you!

Yeah, not 100% sure now....re looking at this is seems you may be right.

http://www.cruiserfaq.com/08-01.php

1986 FJ73 3F A440F Auto - 2.296 - Would have to be 1990-91 to be 2.488. Would still get me a gain in low range of approx 17%.

Could do the whole 5 speed thing, but then again its extra work and $$ to get it all fitted, and I end up with a box I wont be sure of the history on. Just noticed the H41 box on that link above has a similar low 1st to yours (4.925) that would fit with less work. (If they are in Oz?)


Wonder if there is any yankee options which might get affordable with the aussie $ getting stronger.

TWISTY wrote:

RUFF wrote:Wonder if there is any yankee options which might get affordable with the aussie $ getting stronger.

If you happen to find a US option let me know............ From reading on MUD the 2.48 gears are quite rare. I spoke to a guy from South America also, but same thing = rare. I was looking around for a set of the 2.28 (2.29???) gears, but the only vehicles that I know for sure that had them are 88 and 89 60 series auto Cruisers (found this scouring through old Overlander magazines).

At best the Marks gears are 3.05, which makes it an expensive $2K option.

Sixty's Guy wrote:At best the Marks gears are 3.05, which makes it an expensive $2K option.

Yeah, hard to justify the $2k for the marks....though the overdrive high range could be good if I keep the 4spd.

As for the yankee stuff, the Orion at 4:1 looks like a ok option at (US)$1511
http://advanceadapters.com/product/2437 ... e-Kit.html

I was considering Marks gears when I relaised that I didn't like the 35z on standard gearing, but then I bought CW&P's from the US relatively cheap. Also read a bit on the forums about the marks gears being noisy.

TWISTY wrote:As for the yankee stuff, the Orion at 4:1 looks like a ok option at (US)$1511
http://advanceadapters.com/product/2437 ... e-Kit.html

Now that looks the goods, won't fit mine though! It does make the marks gears look ridiculouly expensive....

Another option popped up on the weekend, so thought I'd bump this thread up to check to see what others think.

I can get a ZF Auto and LT230 xfer from a rangie for a price too good to pass up. Then use a Marks Adapters kit to bolt this up to the 5l V8.

Have spoke with BJ on Roids about this, and he ran 42s on this setup, so sounds like it will be perfect for my 35s.

This option will end up similar in price to me getting a marks kit for my manual, and fitting the auto xfer.

Any thoughts/info?

TWISTY wrote:Have spoke with BJ on Roids about this, and he ran 42s on this setup, so sounds like it will be perfect for my 35s.

It maybe too low if it was good on 42's.. quite a bit of weight as well as diameter difference.

TWISTY wrote:Another option popped up on the weekend, so thought I'd bump this thread up to check to see what others think.

I can get a ZF Auto and LT230 xfer from a rangie for a price too good to pass up. Then use a Marks Adapters kit to bolt this up to the 5l V8.

Have spoke with BJ on Roids about this, and he ran 42s on this setup, so sounds like it will be perfect for my 35s.

This option will end up similar in price to me getting a marks kit for my manual, and fitting the auto xfer.

Any thoughts/info?

This would be my choice with the only downside being the fulltime 4wd in the LT230. The LT230 runs at 3.321:1 in standard trim and can be changed out to 4.3:1 or 5:1 with Maxi-drive gears for less than 2k in parts and fitting with an upgraded cross shaft and rebuild kit.

Most of the buggies out of Haultech ran LT230s and from memory Tony's had 5:1 gears. I've been running a ZF/LT in my Rangie for a while now on 37s and 4.3 diff gears with zero problems. Am abou to change the tranny gears to 5:1 as well.

You can also do front digs with them

Micka wrote:This would be my choice with the only downside being the fulltime 4wd in the LT230. The LT230 runs at 3.321:1 in standard trim and can be changed out to 4.3:1 or 5:1 with Maxi-drive gears for less than 2k in parts and fitting with an upgraded cross shaft and rebuild kit.

Most of the buggies out of Haultech ran LT230s and from memory Tony's had 5:1 gears. I've been running a ZF/LT in my Rangie for a while now on 37s and 4.3 diff gears with zero problems. Am abou to change the tranny gears to 5:1 as well.

You can also do front digs with them

Cheers for the info Micka, what diff ratios are you running in your rangie? and can you confirm the ZF Auto's first gear is 2.48?

So with all std the crawl ratio will be 2.48 x 3.321 x 4.1 = 33.768 , only 12% better then what the toyota auto would be, but atleast crawler gears will be cheaper for in the future.

I seen that AVM do part time kits for the lt230 too, would have to choose between this and front digs I guess.

Other thing I haven't checked yet is driveline length.

TWISTY wrote:

Micka wrote:This would be my choice with the only downside being the fulltime 4wd in the LT230. The LT230 runs at 3.321:1 in standard trim and can be changed out to 4.3:1 or 5:1 with Maxi-drive gears for less than 2k in parts and fitting with an upgraded cross shaft and rebuild kit.

Most of the buggies out of Haultech ran LT230s and from memory Tony's had 5:1 gears. I've been running a ZF/LT in my Rangie for a while now on 37s and 4.3 diff gears with zero problems. Am abou to change the tranny gears to 5:1 as well.

You can also do front digs with them

Cheers for the info Micka, what diff ratios are you running in your rangie? and can you confirm the ZF Auto's first gear is 2.48?

So with all std the crawl ratio will be 2.48 x 3.321 x 4.1 = 33.768 , only 12% better then what the toyota auto would be, but atleast crawler gears will be cheaper for in the future.

I seen that AVM do part time kits for the lt230 too, would have to choose between this and front digs I guess.

Other thing I haven't checked yet is driveline length.

Yeah mate the ZF is either 2.48 or 2.46..can't remember which. I am running 4.3 diff gears. Our buggy ran only 4.1 diffs with an LT/ZF combo on 37s and although it didn't launch how I would have liked, it still crawled and drove most things that we pointed it at. Having said that, I am changing to 5:1 gears in my Rangie because I want it to launch and crawl a bit better.

I would either keep the LT as full time, or do the part time and add a disconnect for digs. Its not essential, of course to ba able to dig, but fark me it comes in handy at times.

have you thought about the turbo 750 which would of been behind the motor originaly the useing a hilux transfer

Micka wrote:Yeah mate the ZF is either 2.48 or 2.46..can't remember which. I am running 4.3 diff gears. Our buggy ran only 4.1 diffs with an LT/ZF combo on 37s and although it didn't launch how I would have liked, it still crawled and drove most things that we pointed it at. Having said that, I am changing to 5:1 gears in my Rangie because I want it to launch and crawl a bit better.

I would either keep the LT as full time, or do the part time and add a disconnect for digs. Its not essential, of course to ba able to dig, but fark me it comes in handy at times.

Thanks again....good to know that my 35s should run fine on the std. setup.

Part time would suit me more to begin with I think.....front digs and stock cvs probably wouldn't mix real well.

hillbilliywheelchair wrote:have you thought about the turbo 750 which would of been behind the motor originaly the useing a hilux transfer

Cant use the hilux xfer due to the centred rear output of the transfer case and the 40 having a offset rear diff.

Did wonder if a turbo auto would be a better way to go, as from what I've read the ZF is very expensive to rebuild. But is more outlay to start with, the price I'm getting the ZF & LT230 for is very cheap.

Other thought, since I've never had a auto 4b, so dont know what its like, is somehow adapt the lt230 to my current 4spd manual.....crawl ratio will then be 48.4 which is equivalent to installing the lowest marks adapters transfer case gears for a landcruiser.

TWISTY wrote:

Micka wrote:Yeah mate the ZF is either 2.48 or 2.46..can't remember which. I am running 4.3 diff gears. Our buggy ran only 4.1 diffs with an LT/ZF combo on 37s and although it didn't launch how I would have liked, it still crawled and drove most things that we pointed it at. Having said that, I am changing to 5:1 gears in my Rangie because I want it to launch and crawl a bit better.

I would either keep the LT as full time, or do the part time and add a disconnect for digs. Its not essential, of course to ba able to dig, but fark me it comes in handy at times.

Thanks again....good to know that my 35s should run fine on the std. setup.

Part time would suit me more to begin with I think.....front digs and stock cvs probably wouldn't mix real well.

hillbilliywheelchair wrote:have you thought about the turbo 750 which would of been behind the motor originaly the useing a hilux transfer

Cant use the hilux xfer due to the centred rear output of the transfer case and the 40 having a offset rear diff.

Did wonder if a turbo auto would be a better way to go, as from what I've read the ZF is very expensive to rebuild. But is more outlay to start with, the price I'm getting the ZF & LT230 for is very cheap.

Other thought, since I've never had a auto 4b, so dont know what its like, is somehow adapt the lt230 to my current 4spd manual.....crawl ratio will then be 48.4 which is equivalent to installing the lowest marks adapters transfer case gears for a landcruiser.

Go with an auto whichever way you decide. So much better for Rock and hill climbs. People tell you that they're shit for downhill, but its all in the experience and how you drive.

their is always the bundy transfer its offset
and i think they take hilux transfer gears but dont quote me on this

you can adapt anything if you have the skills
i know striker auto in port pirie in sa can make any adaptor you want but their a fair hike for you (and for me)

Micka wrote:Go with an auto whichever way you decide. So much better for Rock and hill climbs. People tell you that they're shit for downhill, but its all in the experience and how you drive.

Yeah, I think once I drive the auto, I'll never look back.....

hillbilliywheelchair wrote:their is always the bundy transfer its offset
and i think they take hilux transfer gears but dont quote me on this

Nup, bundy is the same as the landcrusier split case I'm running now. Reason for not wanting a split case is aftermarket crawler transfer case gears are expensive.

Micka wrote: Go with an auto whichever way you decide. So much better for Rock and hill climbs. People tell you that they're shit for downhill, but its all in the experience and how you drive.

Gah, manual all the way. Sure, autos easier, but wheres the fun in easier? and aren't we driving for the fun?

You wont be disapointed with the auto Dave, I have a mate that swore blind he would never put an auto in his car but after coming out with me a couple of times he changed his over a few years back & hasn't looked back since.
I'd speak to a convertor specialist for what you want, as someone pointed out earlier you can get the stall dropped down but it does have it's down side too, I went through all that with mine. With my T700 I ended up with a standard stall but with beefed up internals & it was also furnaced brased to make it more efficient, but it does cost a bit more.

I felt the same way. I have run standard transmissions in my 4x4 for over 20 years and I swore up and down I would never want an auto. Man was I wrong. Auto is the only way to go.
I was always afraid that the rig would stop if I got it to far over on its side or on a steep climb. I've dragged this thing on is side and done some nasty hill climbs and it keeps going. I know the previous owner abused it more than I have.

Jason