Outer Limits 4x4 Board

G’day all,

Have had a search and in general people seem very happy with the performance of Koni’s and Bilsteins but there isn’t much talk of how Fox’s perform. I realise they’re not very common over here yet but with the Aussie $ at the moment I can get a set of 2.0 remote reservoirs landed from the US for around $1200AUS, valved to suit.

I’m looking to replace my Lovell’s on my GU as I’m finding they are not up to the task over corrugations and if I hit a washout or water bars with any sort of speed the car is bouncing up quite a lot and not offering the dampening I’m after.

So, the questions I have are:

Has anyone driven on Koni or Bilsteins and can compare against the ride of Fox’s?

Are Koni 82’s adequate or are 88’s worth the extra coin?

Do the Bilstein’s stack up against the higher end Koni’s like the 88’s or are they only equivalent to the 82’s?

Cheers,
John.

disapointed no ones replied to this as i am looking at basically the same gear, also considering tough dog.

I have been looking at fox because of the cost. I have had koni but I'm unsure what series. I think fox would be better value for money. Do you have details for the valving? Have you also looked at fox OEM emmulsion shocks?

Maybe a group buy may be possable?

i have 30/70 valving in my fox remote res. on my 79 series. not quite right, the front needs a bit more spring rate and the rear needs a bit less. but that isnt much to do with the shocks.

the fox shocks transformed my cruiser into a fast speed handle demon. offroad i feel so much more confident because it has made the suspension predictable.... the wheels stay on the ground. the ride is softer and smoother, yet it settles straight away after a hard bump (like a car) which makes it feel firm.

to be honest, ive spent alot of money on my car and these are probably the only thing i would not take off the car if i had to take it all back, they are just awsome.

I did get some good responses on the Patrol 4x4 forum on this one if anyone wants to check it out. I have ordered a set of Fox 2.0 Remote Reservoirs from an Australian Distributor that are custom made by Fox to suit the Patrol mounting system and valved to suit. Not sure what the valving is though.

Could have got them out of the US cheaper but by the time you pay someone to re-valve them (potentially) and do mounts for them it didn't really stack up. Should get my set in 2-3 weeks so will let you know what I think of them.

Where did you get them ?

for somthing different,
I did R & D on a brand of shocks for 2 years in all situations, & 4wd events all over the place, from whinch comps at low speed to high speed at OUTBACK CHALLENGE, where the shocks were put up against the likes of Koni & bilsten.They are desighned under the same principle as Koni & bilsten, but with a few extra modifications to improve to the next level.

THE SHOCK IS THE NEW TJM XGS GOLD,
they are introducing a competition stregnth shock to the retail market
at a touring prices...... not competition price$$$$

I seriously doubt that most TJM stores even know of the quality in their
XGS GOLD as they are only just hitting the shops NOW.

I only know because I have been testing them..

cheers "piglet"

fox shock are the way to go the diferince that it has mad in my comp truck is some thing in its self the ride is there the stiffness is there in the high speed and the flex is un real i matched them to aset of custom rate king springs i went though about 5 or 6 differnt brands and thay all fail well i love my foxes and i will never go back about to get a set for my street 4wd as the ride on dirt road in the comp truck is un real i have mine valved a bit stiff but t like that but for the money you spend it is worth it in two or three years when you have replaceyour shocks just rebuild your foxes rebuild kit is about $70 per shock well that is my thoughts

Nev wrote:I did get some good responses on the Patrol 4x4 forum on this one if anyone wants to check it out. I have ordered a set of Fox 2.0 Remote Reservoirs from an Australian Distributor that are custom made by Fox to suit the Patrol mounting system and valved to suit. Not sure what the valving is though.

Could have got them out of the US cheaper but by the time you pay someone to re-valve them (potentially) and do mounts for them it didn't really stack up. Should get my set in 2-3 weeks so will let you know what I think of them.

more info on the supplier and "mounting" differences that allow them to fit please

wizard do the bolt on kit, they use custom pip mounts on the front and a custom 3/4 hourglass bush on the rear to fit the standard mounts.

they are also quite well priced.

you reckon wizard will sell just the mounts. I want to piece together my own suspension and do it myself. But if i can get bolt/weld on mounts that can make life easier.

Ill be using 2.5 triple bypass with remote res, long arm in the rear, hi flex arms in the front with flex coils.

koni etc are too small for a 3 tonne truck, 2" fox is better but IMO 2.5's are ideal for casual use. I'll fit 2.5" bypass to every 4x4 I have from now on, even daily drivers. You have the shocks for life as they are 100% rebuildable.

for racing either 3" or 4" as a minimum. I had 2.5" and they are way too small - work too hard and do not damp enough which means they need more valving - hence more heat and fade. Ok for short events like winch etc.

for my desert project I am looking at 3"coil all round and 3" bypass, although if it is heavy (2 tonne +) I'll run 4" bypass.

cheers bru

Hey Nev, good choice on the shocks, I believe they are worth the extra money.

I changed to the FOX 2.0's from OME. I did quite a bit of research on shocks before making the decision. Valved correctly, they are a fanatstic shock and as mentioned fully rebuildable (if you're goood on the spanners you can do it yourself).

I've had them on the vehicle for over a year now and no problems. Month long trip through the Flinders last year when I first got them and Gibb this year. Both trips from Perth.

As Bru mentions the 2.5's may be better simply due to the increase in oil volume, mine get quite hot to the touch after a few hours of corrugattions, but, they never stop damping (the OME's would, though they would be fine once they cooled down).

bru21 wrote:koni etc are too small for a 3 tonne truck,

Dan ran his GU from Melb - cape and back with the mobile house in tow, he said they were awesome, and didnt fade at all.
90 series koni

vanbox wrote:you reckon wizard will sell just the mounts. I want to piece together my own suspension and do it myself. But if i can get bolt/weld on mounts that can make life easier.

Ill be using 2.5 triple bypass with remote res, long arm in the rear, hi flex arms in the front with flex coils.

I dont know if wizard have the bolt on mounts for triples, ATS 4x4 does have mounts though and he had his GU setup with them too.

pigletracing wrote:They are desighned under the same principle as Koni & bilsten, but with a few extra modifications to improve to the next level.

but i thought all shocks were based on similar principle?

so what makes them better?

chunderlicious wrote:

vanbox wrote:you reckon wizard will sell just the mounts. I want to piece together my own suspension and do it myself. But if i can get bolt/weld on mounts that can make life easier.

Ill be using 2.5 triple bypass with remote res, long arm in the rear, hi flex arms in the front with flex coils.

I dont know if wizard have the bolt on mounts for triples, ATS 4x4 does have mounts though and he had his GU setup with them too.

ATS will only do a full in-house kit! $$$$

bru21 wrote: for racing either 3" or 4" as a minimum. I had 2.5" and they are way too small - work too hard and do not damp enough which means they need more valving - hence more heat and fade. Ok for short events like winch etc.

for my desert project I am looking at 3"coil all round and 3" bypass, although if it is heavy (2 tonne +) I'll run 4" bypass.

cheers bru

i was going to buy 2.5 for my rocky... ill be gettin 3" now

So fox are the way to go and 3 inch ones would be best for my 80 series in touring and general? Do you have to change anything because of the extra tank or just mount it the best way possible?

Wizard make pin to eye converters for the top mount on the front of patrols which bolts on in place of the OEM tower.

Just out of interest to some, I got a quote in Brisbane for a full set of bolt on King 2.5's for around $3200. Wizard were talking of also getting some 2.5 Fox Remotes with Nissan style bushes for the rear. Phone them for price as I forget but very reasonable given they are getting Fox to custom make all these to suit the trols.

Other prices include $245 each for B46 series Bilsteins, approx $2500 for full set of 90 series Konis and around $1600 for 88 series Konis. That's why I decided to just get the Fox's....Spoke to Brent at Wizard again today, definitely a goer, will just be a few more weeks.

rowenb wrote:So fox are the way to go and 3 inch ones would be best for my 80 series in touring and general? Do you have to change anything because of the extra tank or just mount it the best way possible?

2.0 remote res shocks will be fine for road driving and touring. 2.5 will be awsome and most will say overkill, 3.0s will just be hard to fit in the front and will be overkill... unless your racing.

chunderlicious wrote:... 2.5 will be awsome and most will say overkill.

specially at $3200

$3200 is nothing for shocks. the set I bought when I was going to build the Jimny were over $9.5k I think my new buggy will be close to 20k.

Because generally they are $100-300 ea doesn't mean a good shock should be. Look at the quality of a street bike shock bogged - they would cost 5k easy if they were not part of the bike.

The koni's you mentiond look bigger than I have seen (to be honest) and probably work well for what they are. But they will not hold a candle to fox / king / saw shocks.

Shocks simple turn kinetic energy into heat. Something like a koni will have to have less damping due to their size than a larger fox etc will provide based on sheer size alone - and also due to the remotes (greater surface area for cooling).

A 4" fox saw 600F degrees at one recent event in the US on a fast TT - they turn brown and still survived.

Shocks are the most important part in Off road racing. Look at motocross etc

3" are nice for touring but unless they are bypass or valved soft they will be harsh in the initial stroke for small bumps etc

It has to be said also that the mounts have to be stronger for larger shocks - and 90% of what is getting around is a bit marginal for 2.5 - 3" shocks. The springs are only there to maintain ride height and large jumps etc take a huge toll on shock mounts.

on a tourer it is even more critical as stress cracks are a problem and having a shock pull from the chassis would suck - use similar thickness metals and design well.

Look around for "prerunners" to get ideas - most guys run fox / king on their F150's etc.

as much as all this shock sizing debate sounds cool, it starts to become a bit of a waste once you really consider what its attached to!
If you are spending $3k or $20k on shocks then bolting it to STD OE chassis geometry then you need f******ng.

Some examples of chassis link force resultants (how much of the bump is absorbed/transmitted by the link/arm rather than the spring):
FRONT
stock GQ GU front rad arm - 3.8%
4/5" GQ GU front rad arm - 15.83%

REAR
stock GQ GU - 7.6-11.2%
4/5" GQ GU rear links - 28.7%
4/5" GQ GU long arm kit - 18.6%
prefered TT / pro4 - ~6-10%

bru21 wrote:$3200 is nothing for shocks. the set I bought when I was going to build the Jimny were over $9.5k I think my new buggy will be close to 20k..

For a balls out comp truck probably.
But there is no need for 10,000 of shocks on a weekend truck or a tourer. There are PLENTY of options for 1/4th that price that work really well and be more than 80% of wheelers need..

1MadEngineer wrote:as much as all this shock sizing debate sounds cool, it starts to become a bit of a waste once you really consider what its attached to!
If you are spending $3k or $20k on shocks then bolting it to STD OE chassis geometry then you need f******ng.

bogged wrote:

bru21 wrote:$3200 is nothing for shocks. the set I bought when I was going to build the Jimny were over $9.5k I think my new buggy will be close to 20k..

For a balls out comp truck probably.
But there is no need for 10,000 of shocks on a weekend truck or a tourer. There are PLENTY of options for 1/4th that price that work really well and be more than 80% of wheelers need..

1MadEngineer wrote:as much as all this shock sizing debate sounds cool, it starts to become a bit of a waste once you really consider what its attached to!
If you are spending $3k or $20k on shocks then bolting it to STD OE chassis geometry then you need f******ng.

I agree on both counts.

This topic really needs splittiong into 3 or 4 sections.

I said I would run 2.5 bypass on a tourer, and I stand by that. That said for me a tourer is nothing like 90% of tourers. I am causally looking at a 70 series wagon for my next car, I'll long arm coil the rear, and fit bypasses all round.
I have no interest driving cape roads at 90kph towing a trailer for example so would not build a car around that.

I still think a 2" shock will get fade (how much depends on speed / conditions) if valved to suit a patrol, so I would go 2.5"

Any leading arm front end will never work all that well especially when arms are parallel to the ground or lifted, so maybe a modified IFS hilux etc will be better.

And I think spending 3K on a good shock setup will get great results, especially with the new king springs and a welll tuned rate. And I think its little money compared to the 70k+ a 200 series costs, or even a dirty 3.0l for that matter. It changes the car's feel big time!

I just find it hard to draw the line these days because I like good gear even if its not justified at all.

I dont think it needs to be a debate about how much money you should spend. If someone wants to spend 20k on shocks (sorry Bru) then good for him. He has a vehicle that will require every dollar those shocks are valued at.
Have been for a ride in a patrol (race car) with new triple bypass shocks that the owner hadnt had tuned yet and thought it was feral, but I loved it.
So I have decided my new suspension in the GU ute will be 2.5in remote reservoir shocks all round. I will have to save longer, but to me (and for anyone else with whatever suspension they use) ill be doing it once and doing it right! There is a bit of fab work to get them in, but with travel up to 18", the super-flex arms and long arm kit will be used to their full potential.

Keep the comments coming, info regarding fitting these shocks, personal experiences etc.

cheers

PAUL

bru21 wrote:$3200 is nothing for shocks. the set I bought when I was going to build the Jimny were over $9.5k I think my new buggy will be close to 20k.

Because generally they are $100-300 ea doesn't mean a good shock should be. Look at the quality of a street bike shock bogged - they would cost 5k easy if they were not part of the bike.

The koni's you mentiond look bigger than I have seen (to be honest) and probably work well for what they are. But they will not hold a candle to fox / king / saw shocks.

Shocks simple turn kinetic energy into heat. Something like a koni will have to have less damping due to their size than a larger fox etc will provide based on sheer size alone - and also due to the remotes (greater surface area for cooling).

A 4" fox saw 600F degrees at one recent event in the US on a fast TT - they turn brown and still survived.

Shocks are the most important part in Off road racing. Look at motocross etc

3" are nice for touring but unless they are bypass or valved soft they will be harsh in the initial stroke for small bumps etc

It has to be said also that the mounts have to be stronger for larger shocks - and 90% of what is getting around is a bit marginal for 2.5 - 3" shocks. The springs are only there to maintain ride height and large jumps etc take a huge toll on shock mounts.

on a tourer it is even more critical as stress cracks are a problem and having a shock pull from the chassis would suck - use similar thickness metals and design well.

Look around for "prerunners" to get ideas - most guys run fox / king on their F150's etc.

There's some absolute junk in this thread. Since when did shock diameter dictate the valving inside?
$2500 for konis? Yeesh. My last two (gas/hydraulic to fit an 80 series cruiser) cost me just over $200 the pair on clearance. Retail was under $500 the pair.

Never have my koni's faded. I did have the head on one unscrew which has been the only issue in over 100,000km.
To get shocks hot you need to work them hard at slow speeds. High speeds provide plenty of forced air cooling and the wheels don't have time to reach the bottom of each hole (natural frequency of unsprung mass and all that).

KiwiBacon wrote:$2500 for konis? Yeesh. My last two (gas/hydraulic to fit an 80 series cruiser) cost me just over $200 the pair on clearance. Retail was under $500 the pair..

If you can get Koni 90 series that cheap, You will setup your retirement very very fast.. I'd say you could sell 30 sets on ebay too..

The idea of having bypasses on a tourer is a bit dubious. I think the check valve noises from the bypasses would drive most mad.