Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Hi all

I've converted my 80 series rear hubs to 4 x 8mm dowels and i'd like to upgrade the studs to 3/8th cap screws.

My questions are,

should i use a washer?
should i loctite?
and what torque setting should i use on the cap screws?

One our members uses a disc with six match drilled holes to suit the stud/capsrew PCD with minimal clearence holes for the capscrews. No washers or any other attachments, the disc acts as one large washer. He swears by them and he has tried all sorts before finding this solution.

Cheers

i converted my rear to 10mm cap screws.. but on the front I only went for 8mm cap screws and used the original cups and washers, have never had a problem with that set up and would think that u could get away with the same on the rear...

Struth wrote:One our members uses a disc with six match drilled holes to suit the stud/capsrew PCD with minimal clearence holes for the capscrews. No washers or any other attachments, the disc acts as one large washer. He swears by them and he has tried all sorts before finding this solution.

Cheers

Yeah i remember that conversation. I'd love to do that but i don't have the facilities here to get that done and i need to get this bugger on the road for a comp. I'm sort of making a compromise by doing it this way.

thanks dude

crankycruiser wrote:i converted my rear to 10mm cap screws.. but on the front I only went for 8mm cap screws and used the original cups and washers, have never had a problem with that set up and would think that u could get away with the same on the rear...

the original cups are for 7mm studs. Is that what you meant? you just used 7mm cap screws? Are they full thread or do they have a short length of shank and how long is it?

Are you loctiting and what torque are you setting to front and rear?

M8 x 45 grade 12 SHCS + 1 x m8 hi-tensile washer + original cone + original spring washer....

1MadEngineer wrote:M8 x 45 grade 12 SHCS + 1 x m8 hi-tensile washer + original cone + original spring washer....

Bugger. Already bought 3/8" SHCS and Tap.

Why are people saying M8? they won't pass through the standard M7 cone washer. Are you getting M8 cone washers from somewhere else?

rockcrawler31 wrote:

1MadEngineer wrote:M8 x 45 grade 12 SHCS + 1 x m8 hi-tensile washer + original cone + original spring washer....

Bugger. Already bought 3/8" SHCS and Tap.

Why are people saying M8? they won't pass through the standard M7 cone washer. Are you getting M8 cone washers from somewhere else?

WTF is M7? they are 8mm. its toyota --- everything is Metric 6,8,10,12mm

1MadEngineer wrote:

rockcrawler31 wrote:

1MadEngineer wrote:M8 x 45 grade 12 SHCS + 1 x m8 hi-tensile washer + original cone + original spring washer....

Bugger. Already bought 3/8" SHCS and Tap.

Why are people saying M8? they won't pass through the standard M7 cone washer. Are you getting M8 cone washers from somewhere else?

WTF is M7? they are 8mm. its toyota --- everything is Metric 6,8,10,12mm

Yup just went outside and checked. M8 for sure, buggered if i know why i thought 7mm. Sorry about that.

Looks like i am off to try and get these bolts swapped for metric.

Still, what sort of torque should i be setting these to and should i be using loctite?

1MadEngineer wrote:

rockcrawler31 wrote:

1MadEngineer wrote:M8 x 45 grade 12 SHCS + 1 x m8 hi-tensile washer + original cone + original spring washer....

Bugger. Already bought 3/8" SHCS and Tap.

Why are people saying M8? they won't pass through the standard M7 cone washer. Are you getting M8 cone washers from somewhere else?

WTF is M7? they are 8mm. its toyota --- everything is Metric 6,8,10,12mm

I would say he has measured the cone lock after it was removed from the stud which would make sence as they open up as you fit them to the stud.

rockcrawler31 wrote: Still, what sort of torque should i be setting these to and should i be using loctite?

really f****in tight! BUT predrill 2.5mm dia holes through the heads first. install, do up tight THEN tie-wire in groups of 3.

Thanks guys

another idea...

how would it go using M10 SHCS with the cones from a 100 series. Then drill the existing holes to M10, as well as the bottom of the taper on the axle flange. Then install the bolts with M10 cones into the remaining taper of the axle. It would mean the cones sit a little proud but mean you don't have to re cut the tapers in the axle, as well as avoiding the problem of not much meat left on the outside of the axle flange.

I would just use the 3/8 ones you allready have. Dont worry about the cone locks. The SHCS seat nicely in the original cones anyway.

Most of the Haultech buggies ran Corse thread 3/8 SHCS with no cone locks or washers with no issues at all.

Cheers Tony

I guess it'll be a bit of R and D then. I noticed with the 3/8 that there will be a fair bit of the taper not touching the bolt. did you find that with the ones you did? it would mean only the bottom 2-3mm of the bolt would be touching the axle.

I just tried to put the cones on a 3/8th bolt. A lot of swearing and a little blood later - Ba Bowwww!!!! No go.

RUFF wrote: Most of the Haultech buggies ran Corse thread 3/8 SHCS with no cone locks or washers with no issues at all.

Was that with any mods to the dowels?

I suspect that my shearing issues might have a bit to do with the housings not being straight too. I just had MacNamara's straighten them and the rear was 5/8 out one side rear and 1/4 out passenger front. I'm hoping that with the 4 x 8mm dowels something else should break first

rockcrawler31 wrote:

RUFF wrote: Most of the Haultech buggies ran Corse thread 3/8 SHCS with no cone locks or washers with no issues at all.

Was that with any mods to the dowels?

I suspect that my shearing issues might have a bit to do with the housings not being straight too. I just had MacNamara's straighten them and the rear was 5/8 out one side rear and 1/4 out passenger front. I'm hoping that with the 4 x 8mm dowels something else should break first

No dowl mods. No tension wrench just tightened by hand. Although its only the bottom part of the bolt touching theaxle the fact they are grade 12 and the cap head seats in the cone area helps a lot.

just put a nissan diff in it! they are unbreakable. i read it on the innerrmernet so it must be true.

1MadEngineer wrote:just put a nissan diff in it! they are unbreakable. i read it on the innerrmernet so it must be true.

Yep read the same too, obviously it's right

Yer mine are M8 and they area full thread... and tension....

i tighten em up till my wrist clicks..

Quick question.

Why would you want to put imperial bolts into a metric vehicle?

crankycruiser wrote:Yer mine are M8 and they area full thread... and tension....

i tighten em up till my wrist clicks..

I prefer the double grunt method for checking torque.

Actually when we're on the rig using the the power wrenches we use the flinch method. When the tongs look like they want to give in the ghost and yer backing away while flinching because you think it's going to go all destructively pear shaped - it's tight

KiwiBacon wrote:Quick question.

Why would you want to put imperial bolts into a metric vehicle?

They will leave a little bit more meat on the hubs than an M.10 would.

Cheers

KiwiBacon wrote:Quick question.

Why would you want to put imperial bolts into a metric vehicle?

Fer Shitzengiggles

Actually in the threads i have read on this in the past i have heard people saying that the 10mm stud conversions leave too little meat on the axles and hubs. 3/8" is marginally smaller than 10mm (9.58 or summat) so that little bit extra margin.

Damn. Beat me to it struth

rockcrawler31 wrote:

KiwiBacon wrote:Quick question.

Why would you want to put imperial bolts into a metric vehicle?

Fer Shitzengiggles

Actually in the threads i have read on this in the past i have heard people saying that the 10mm stud conversions leave too little meat on the axles and hubs. 3/8" is marginally smaller than 10mm (9.58 or summat) so that little bit extra margin.

Is 0.2mm on each side enough to make any difference?

KiwiBacon wrote:

rockcrawler31 wrote:

KiwiBacon wrote:Quick question.

Why would you want to put imperial bolts into a metric vehicle?

Fer Shitzengiggles

Actually in the threads i have read on this in the past i have heard people saying that the 10mm stud conversions leave too little meat on the axles and hubs. 3/8" is marginally smaller than 10mm (9.58 or summat) so that little bit extra margin.

Is 0.2mm on each side enough to make any difference?

Fair call, but the reality is that i already have imperial stuff on the car anyway with all the air lines and brass fittings etc. It was what was available to me at the time

1MadEngineer wrote:M8 x 45 grade 12 SHCS + 1 x m8 hi-tensile washer + original cone + original spring washer....

What's with the original spring washer. Is that correct. I have very recently pulled all mine apart both front and rear and the only ones (about 3) that had spring washers had pain old spring washers but no DIN (fat) flat washers. I had some spares so swapped the springs for the flats. Is the factory set up really supposed to have spring washers.

What's all the crap about extra dowels, surely those 2 (or 4) 8mm dowels are not designed as drive pins but as locators. My thoughts if I have a problem was to tap out the pin holes and drill and tap the 2 even spaces where there is room for another 2 studs/bolts and convert to SHCS but now have 10 SHCS and no dowels but retain the original cones to keep everything central. I assume that is the purrpose of the cones??? or is it something else.

Would be nice to get SHCS with a short shank rather than dragging on the thread but suppose it doesn't really hurt the cones.

Is grade 12 really necessary (not sure if they are expensive) surely grade 10.9 would be plently. What grade are the factory studs, 8.8's.

Could get some nice titanium SHCS with bigger diameter heads than standard but the head thickness is less so the hex is shallower and maybe not so conducive to heavy tightening. Ducatis run grade 10.9's in their front brakes close to that length and there are plently of titanium aftermarket replacements.

fester2au wrote:Is grade 12 really necessary (not sure if they are expensive) surely grade 10.9 would be plently. What grade are the factory studs, 8.8's.

A higher grade bolt can be tightened to a higher torque value. Providing more clamping force which is the goal for almost every bolted join.

fester2au wrote: Would be nice to get SHCS with a short shank rather than dragging on the thread but suppose it doesn't really hurt the cones.

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Just buy longer bolts with the shank length you want then cut the end off to get the overall length right.

Sam