Outer Limits 4x4 Board

hey guys i have a zuke that i have cut into a ute now im lookin a wat im goin to do with suspension for both front and rear.

im using 60 series diffs, going to move the rear diff back about 300mm, i wanted to do a 4-link but after doin some research i cant work out the calculator , so now im thinking maybe 5-link?

any help would be great
thanks tyson

How to use the calculator.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showpost ... stcount=21

v840 wrote:How to use the calculator.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showpost ... stcount=21

thanks mate it makes it alot easyer to read

but i still dont know the weight (havnt built the tray) and dont know the hight that it will sit

there was a guy not long ago doing 60 series diffs (i think) in a sierra, and he did it by cutting up the 60 series chassis and grafting it to the sierra one - so all the mounting points were instantly lined up and all he needed to do was body mounts and engineer the chassis mods. Was very clever and very neat work!

60_series_united wrote:

v840 wrote:How to use the calculator.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showpost ... stcount=21

thanks mate it makes it alot easyer to read

but i still dont know the weight (havnt built the tray) and dont know the hight that it will sit

how much is it goin to change the geometry if i enter the weight without a tray and build the tray after the suspension is done, as for the hight i can just sit it on stands and find a hight that im happy with and get springs to suit

60_series_united wrote:

v840 wrote:How to use the calculator.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showpost ... stcount=21

thanks mate it makes it alot easyer to read

but i still dont know the weight (havnt built the tray) and dont know the hight that it will sit

Bet you don't know your CoG either.

The calculators big downfall IMO is it's reliance on the Cog. But that's by the by.


Just guesstimate the weight. Make a realistic assessment of what each corner weighs (including tray) and go off that. The calculator is far from infallible and is more there to provide a rough guideline. Just in case you weren't aware, the common consensus on determining your CoG (the booty fab way) is to measure from the topmost bolt on your bellhousing.

You do need to work out what you're going to run and where it's going to go and build the suspension around it. Tyres, lift, and wheelbase all being important factors in a link build. I know it's not really that popular in Aus yet but my 2 cents is to go for as little lift as possible and cut guards. Stability coupled with lockers makes for the successful wheeler rather than massif flexxx and monster ride height yo.

If you build some adjustability in to your link mounts you can get away with getting your calculator numbers "close enough" and then tweak it to suit in the real world. This is very important IMO, been able to tweak your setup is a real boon when wheeling different terrains or just dialing your shit in to work right for you.


Have you read link suspension for dummies? Lots of useful info there. Carefully read StrangeRovers posts.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=168577



Get a rough idea happening and post up your calculator figures.

Can someone explain to me the difference between 4 and 5 link suspension! Thanks.

4 link has 4 control arms locating attached to the diff running to the chassis. They are generally triangulated (either top or bottom links or all 4) so as to prevent lateral movement of the diff.



The above has just the upper control arms triangulated, the diff would run laterally across the top of the photo.

A better shot:


60_series_united, you can see this guy has built adjustability in to his frame side lower link mounts.

5 links are similar except that they have the control arms non-triangulated and a panhard rod to locate the diff laterally.



The links are yellow and light brown/beige and the panhard rod is green.

GQs (and GUs?) have a 5 link rear from the factory if you want to check one out in the flesh.

alien wrote:there was a guy not long ago doing 60 series diffs (i think) in a sierra, and he did it by cutting up the 60 series chassis and grafting it to the sierra one - so all the mounting points were instantly lined up and all he needed to do was body mounts and engineer the chassis mods. Was very clever and very neat work!

If it's the same one I'm thinking of, the project was scrapped due to the amount of work being involved. Decided to use use the entire donor chassis and give up on it being a sierra.

thats a shame, because it looked like a fantastic solution that would be easy to engineer.

hey mate.. im running lux diffs in my 1991 sierra, and i have almost finished a coil conversion in the rear. I used this same calculator.. at first it was a headache.. but all of a sudden it all made sence, and it worked out a treat!! I was working closely with some yanky fellas from pirate4x4, and they also helped heaps.. the main tips i can give ya is to keep all of the brackets etc to the exact measurement the calculator tells you to do.. otherwise you will start getting movement/excess rear steer. Anyways.. here is a link to my build up thread.. it starts on the bottom of this page http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/ftopic150416-60.php
I will also pm you my mobile number.. give me a call and i will try and talk you through the calculator
Heres some piccies of my setup..

Good advice V840..

As stated make all the mounts (chassis end) adjustable with at least three different mounting heights.
Make all the links adjustable.

You can tweak antisquat, pinion angle easily if you leave an inch or two of adjustment in your link ends.

Another basic rule is that make sure non of the links are parallel. (viewed from the side or top).

Everyone talks about 4 links having rear steer. The secret not having any rear steer is to make sure the lower links are angled in at the chassis end.

Hard to explain in words.. but, imagine the rear flexing. (with parallel lower links)
Right hand rear tyre is at full droop, left hand rear is compressed, the lower link on the right is now shorter (wheelbase) than the right.
Causing rear steer.

It is still referred to as a 4 link, but more commonly known as a dual or double triangulated rear.

I've got a headache now...

Some pichers to help explain my giberish

Have a good think about what you want the car to achieve. Sierra's are reasonably tight for clearances, and if you want to run the car low (you want to run the car low) you'll soon realise there's not a lot of room to fit everything in.

One of the disadvantages of a 4 (or 5) link is packaging. One reason is that there's no bind in a properly designed 4 or 5 link design, so roll stiffness generally has to be introduced with a sway bar - that's something else to package.

I decided to radius arm my sierra. It's neat, clean, and there's minimal fabrication. It's low, stable, and has plenty of roll stiffness.

Personally, I'd take a low car with moderate flex over a tall car with massive flex, so radius arms were a good choice for me.

I can also convert to a three link easily by adding a single upper link, making the rear end work like a jackeroo, and allowing me to dial in antisquat - a fixed element of radius arms (and they have MASSIVE antisquat - lifting under power. )

Anyway, double-triangulated 4 links are cool, but depending on your priorities, there are other options.










Note - the last photo is a bit of a fake. I've unbolted one radius arm bolts in this shot. This allows awesome flex but results in no roll stiffness so it's not much shop to drive - It's probably still better than some badly designed 4 links though.

Steve.

Steve.

thanks guys im starting to work out the calculator, got a bloke at work whos pretty cluey with that sort of thing, nxt question what are the best link ends to use? i was lookin at creeper joints that i found on www.superiorengineering.com.au they want $130ea but i found them some where else for $85 i think it was locked up 4x4 or somthing

GQ control arm bushes (rubber ones), they have something like 30deg. of flex and you can buy them from any auto parts store (P/N 25682). AFAIK heims are illegal for onroad use.

v840 wrote:GQ control arm bushes (rubber ones), they have something like 30deg. of flex and you can buy them from any auto parts store (P/N 25682). AFAIK heims are illegal for onroad use.

ok ill have a look at them they should be alot cheaper and more avalible too

v840 wrote:GQ control arm bushes (rubber ones), they have something like 30deg. of flex and you can buy them from any auto parts store (P/N 25682). AFAIK heims are illegal for onroad use.

x2.. these are what i am using.. and they work well!

Great work Steve (once again) this is a very good idea, I love the upside down radius arms they give huge clearance.
Peter.

get it up there wrote:

v840 wrote:GQ control arm bushes (rubber ones), they have something like 30deg. of flex and you can buy them from any auto parts store (P/N 25682). AFAIK heims are illegal for onroad use.

x2.. these are what i am using.. and they work well!

is there a difference between uppers and lowers? what are the ones to use?
tyson

Lowers IIRC.

Just ask to look at an upper and a lower at repco or wherever and go the bigger one.

v840 wrote:Lowers IIRC.

Just ask to look at an upper and a lower at repco or wherever and go the bigger one.

Ok thanks mate

Gwagensteve wrote:


Steve.

love the battery location

Do you have a build up thread anywhere Steve?

Sorry if im hijacking. But im on similar path.

Story short. Jimny chassis and all running gear wiring etc. Sierra Lwb body.

So needs new body mounts, And rear suspension mounts all have to be moved an estimate 100mm back to suit lwb wheelbase.

Depends how much engineering a body swap is. Would it be easier to engineer a complete mostly factory chassis swap, or make all new mounts for whole jimny coils etc. I have a whole body damaged Jimny for parts.

This lwb will be for a comfortable daily driver/mild touring 4wding Only..
As i already have a leafy swb for more hardcore stuff.

Does it sound ok?

Ringing engineer tomorrow morning for further technical info anyway.

sounds odd to me - i'd much rather spend the money on making the jimny a custom LWB - utilising the jimny body. much cooler.

I have an apart lwb project that im working on everyday right now, Complete car, but i want coils for comfort only. I am unsure if the lwb's motor even goes..

The jimny's whole drivetrain is perfect.

Fixing the jimny seperately to fixing the lwb is too many projects for the room i have. And the other swb is another ongoing project...

no reason why leaves cant ride comfortably... mines pretty nice by sierra standards - and my leaves are running DEAD FLAT. so they cushion quite nicely. infact theyre too soft so i have stiff shocks in to harden it up and make it handle well on road.

Head over to the suzuki section and do a search there - theres a heap of info on softening the ride of a sierra, and yours being LWB it should be even easier, as the wheelbase accounts for a large portion.

alien wrote:no reason why leaves cant ride comfortably... mines pretty nice by sierra standards

Exactly.

My swb is soft enough. i've been on here for 2.5 years. And have constantly researched and tested so many leaf combinations. But in the end, she's still too rough for long distance onroad. My heavily modified leafs are dead flat also. ruf, stock leafs. ke30Corolla rears. Yes they are soft. But i want softer.

Jimny suspension is compareable to the smoothness of a 05 corolla. Leaf suspension all round is just not compareable to the onroad handling of coils.. Which is the main reason i want to this conversion. onroad 95% as a DD as well as interstate trips with ease.

Have you ever been in a jim to experience this fine suzuki smoothness?

BlueSuzy wrote:
Jimny suspension is compareable to the smoothness of a 05 corolla.

So in the end (which was quick) The chassis swap gives too much engineering drama's because of the 12 year differnce in adr's.

Sorry for the hijack

80's_delirious wrote: Do you have a build up thread anywhere Steve?

Only in the members-only section of the Vic suzuki club site.

Generally any relevant photos will get posted where I think they add/ explain something.

Steve.