Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Ok, I know this has been covered in various aspects before but I would like other members input to help me make this decision.

I currently own a 1990 GQ wagon, 4.2 carby petrol, automatic with 33" mud tyres. I get at best, 220km to 75litres of petrol. Yep, that's over 35lt/100km

It's been tuned properly, had the carby rebuilt, has electronic ignition fitted etc. etc. makes good power, performs great off road, just chews rediculous ammounts of fuel. Has a very recently rebuilt 4spd auto box ($2000) that I like and would want to keep but have no sentimental attachment to. Has to be auto because I have buggered knees.

Time for an engine swap. But I have only narrowed it down to 4 options. We use the truck off road almost every week, want to tour a bit, would love to cross the simpson, if I had to categorise it, it would be a hardcore tourer as it has lockers, high mount, custom bars etc but is still a wagon for fitting all our camping gear and the dogs in. We don't tow ever and don't plan to.

Option 1:
6.5 turbo diesel Chev V8.
pros: heaps of torque, diesel, conversion parts are easily obtainable and relatively cheap (less than 1500 for bellhousing adaptor, engine mounts and no electronics to muck around with much.), V8 sounds great.
cons: fairly expensive engine to buy, parts not as readily available for maintenance etc (so I've been told),

Option2:
warm 350 Chev on straight gas.
pros: sound awesome, engines are moderately priced, millions of parts available, conversion parts roughly the same as diesel V8, no electronics to mess with.
cons: needs to run on gas which limits where you can take it, have to have gas tanks under car which might impede ground clearance, the gas set up would make it nearly as dear as the diesel V8.

Option 3:
LS1 V8.
Pros: again it's a V8 so it sounds wicked, can find engines cheap enough, heaps of power.
cons: expensive to get all the electronics working properly and from my research I'd probably keep a commodore gearbox with it to avoid the pain of trying to get the engine to talk to my nissan auto. Seem to be more bits that you need to get for this swap than the other options.

Option 4:
TD42 and put a decent turbo and intercooler kit on it.
pros: easy swap, diesel reliability, no electronics, cheap to get hold of engine so leaves spare coin for a ball bearing turbo and a decent intercooler, exhaust etc.
cons: If I'm going to the hassle of an engine swap shouldn't I go for more power as well as reliability and torque gains. Not really any faster than what I have at the moment. Maybe once the extra mods are done it would be.


I'll be doing the swap myself, quietly confident I can do all the work myself but the electronics are a bit intimidating for me, hate electrics. End of the day, any of these are better than what I have.

I just want to hear what other people think, especially people who have done the swaps themselves, I'd really like to know running costs, economy or lack of etc.

anzac wrote:.. get at best, 220km to 75litres of petrol. Yep, that's over 35lt/100km

It's been tuned properly.

Then you must have a 4ton hunk of concrete for a foot... sorry, but thats 10/100 worse than most other GQ's. I'd look elsewhere for the tune.

i suppose it really depends how DEEP your wallet is ????
i have a GQ 4.2 EFI auto, and i get 220klm/$60
which as ive been told is about the norm
the carb 4.2 are dearer again
so really depemds how much u want to spend and wat sort of economy u want
remember they are between 2 - 3 tonne
(depending on the extras u have )

oh yeah, they're heavy alright. plus the wheel, tyre and internal beadlock combo are a big killer. Put 31" road tyres on it and I get about an extra 80kms out of the tank.

My absolute max budget is ten thousand. So I figure if I can find a swap that looks like it'll cost 6-7k, I'll be covered for a few budget blow outs and unforseen expenses.

Probably should have put that in my OP. As far as I can tell, from cheapest to most expensive it would go:

TD42
350 Chev
6.5 chev TD
LS1

Correct me if I'm wrong guys, please

Rebuilt TB42 with turbo setup on it...

I say td42 if you want to tour with it. If you weren't interested in touring id possibly say different, depending on how much you want power.

Easiest way if it's for Touring, sell you're 4WD, add the 10k, and buy a Diesel one, or one with the V8 in it already.

You hear about it all the time people saying "nah i've worked out my budget and i'll S*** it in", then you hear "fark me, budgets gone"

Or a cheaper option, would be to put EFI on you're current Motor, and see how it goes, if it's still not enough, Boost it

i have a ls1 and comodore auto in my gq and absolutly love it. dont worry about the electrics, killa kustum kables do a exchange harness with half a dozen wires to hook up, he is based on the sunny coast and if your local will hook it all up for you. i dd all mine mysef and if your mechanicly minded its a pretty easy conversion.

TD42

i'vd got 2 trucks a tb42 with exhaust, airbox, rebuilt carby and ported.
then
TD42 standard internals and pump just exhaust hi mount schwartzer turbo only running 10PSI and front mount.

the TD hauls ass, great 4WD motor get bout 550K's to a 75litre tank.

TD42 delivers good power, great reliability and best fuel economy.

Cris

my vote,



Every thing else is just a rubber band

grinch2 wrote:i have a ls1 and comodore auto in my gq and absolutly love it. dont worry about the electrics, killa kustum kables do a exchange harness with half a dozen wires to hook up, he is based on the sunny coast and if your local will hook it all up for you. i dd all mine mysef and if your mechanicly minded its a pretty easy conversion.

if you don't mind me asking, how much did it cost you to do your conversion

Another option
LPG the one you have. Quicker than an engine change and cheaper.
You could even check out those flash new injection gas doo-hickeys
Plus is the govt still giving out cash rebates for conversions?

don't really want to gas it because we want to do a desert trip or ten

Then you might as well rule out all the petrol combination, because if you drive hard enough to get 35L/100km in a TB42 you won't do much better in an LS1 or chev. So to make them remotely cost effective you'll have to put it on gas which ruins your touring capabilities. If you want to tour go for the simplest diesel setup which will give you the power you require. In your case I'd be selling your truck and just buying one with a TD42 in it. Take the wheels, lockers, bar work and winch out of yours. And chuck a cheap shit alloy bar on the front, and a set of 31/32s you should get $5-6k for it, add your other $10k and you'll have no problem getting a very nice late model GQ TD42 with a snail.

An LS1 is the last thing I would want if I was trying to cross the simpson.

gumbs wrote:Then you might as well rule out all the petrol combination, because if you drive hard enough to get 35L/100km in a TB42 you won't do much better in an LS1 or chev. So to make them remotely cost effective you'll have to put it on gas which ruins your touring capabilities. If you want to tour go for the simplest diesel setup which will give you the power you require. In your case I'd be selling your truck and just buying one with a TD42 in it. Take the wheels, lockers, bar work and winch out of yours. And chuck a cheap shit alloy bar on the front, and a set of 31/32s you should get $5-6k for it, add your other $10k and you'll have no problem getting a very nice late model GQ TD42 with a snail.

An LS1 is the last thing I would want if I was trying to cross the simpson.

can i ask why is that for experiance or opinion? i get about 18-20l/100km in my gq with ls1 on 35's and total of 7" lift driving fairly hard and highway sitting on 120-125km/hr if treated nicely and a more std truck i would expect better. towing my 1.5t camper bairly changes these figures and doesn't effect performance too much.

grinch2 wrote:

gumbs wrote:Then you might as well rule out all the petrol combination, because if you drive hard enough to get 35L/100km in a TB42 you won't do much better in an LS1 or chev. So to make them remotely cost effective you'll have to put it on gas which ruins your touring capabilities. If you want to tour go for the simplest diesel setup which will give you the power you require. In your case I'd be selling your truck and just buying one with a TD42 in it. Take the wheels, lockers, bar work and winch out of yours. And chuck a cheap shit alloy bar on the front, and a set of 31/32s you should get $5-6k for it, add your other $10k and you'll have no problem getting a very nice late model GQ TD42 with a snail.

An LS1 is the last thing I would want if I was trying to cross the simpson.

can i ask why is that for experiance or opinion? i get about 18-20l/100km in my gq with ls1 on 35's and total of 7" lift driving fairly hard and highway sitting on 120-125km/hr if treated nicely and a more std truck i would expect better. towing my 1.5t camper bairly changes these figures and doesn't effect performance too much.

Constant sand work can change figures a lot more than a highway run. thus why the 4.8 GU did <54/100 in a magazine test in constant hard sand driving

anzac wrote:My absolute max budget is ten thousand. So I figure if I can find a swap that looks like it'll cost 6-7k, I'll be covered for a few budget blow outs and unforseen expenses.

Non Turbo 6.5 Chev is 22k drive in drive out.
Duramax is round the same.


I feel your only solution is to either do the TD42 conversion, or sell yours, and add the 10k you have put towards a GU with a 4.2 TD already fitted.

anzac wrote:

grinch2 wrote:i have a ls1 and comodore auto in my gq and absolutly love it. dont worry about the electrics, killa kustum kables do a exchange harness with half a dozen wires to hook up, he is based on the sunny coast and if your local will hook it all up for you. i dd all mine mysef and if your mechanicly minded its a pretty easy conversion.

if you don't mind me asking, how much did it cost you to do your conversion

i just did the sums to do the same conversion into my gu, i worked out i could do it fairly well for $11,500 that included new ac compressor and rebuilding the auto with hd internals. thats all the labour myself including wiring as killla kustums is my brother. a manual would be cheaper and that was working on $4000 for a motor which you can get cheaper on ebay, but i had my eyes on a vz hsv maloo motor ive seen later model low km ones go for as little as $3200 for complete motor and auto and if you dare to brave the early ls1s you can get them for about $2000

I would be holding out for a rolled GQ or GU with a TD42 and pull all the good gear over from that...

grinch2 wrote:

gumbs wrote:Then you might as well rule out all the petrol combination, because if you drive hard enough to get 35L/100km in a TB42 you won't do much better in an LS1 or chev. So to make them remotely cost effective you'll have to put it on gas which ruins your touring capabilities. If you want to tour go for the simplest diesel setup which will give you the power you require. In your case I'd be selling your truck and just buying one with a TD42 in it. Take the wheels, lockers, bar work and winch out of yours. And chuck a cheap shit alloy bar on the front, and a set of 31/32s you should get $5-6k for it, add your other $10k and you'll have no problem getting a very nice late model GQ TD42 with a snail.

An LS1 is the last thing I would want if I was trying to cross the simpson.

can i ask why is that for experiance or opinion? i get about 18-20l/100km in my gq with ls1 on 35's and total of 7" lift driving fairly hard and highway sitting on 120-125km/hr if treated nicely and a more std truck i would expect better. towing my 1.5t camper bairly changes these figures and doesn't effect performance too much.

From the figures I've read GQs with LS1s are generally getting around your figures, about 20L/100km. But I've never heard of anyone managing to get figures as bad as this guy does in a TB42, so if the engine is properly setup like he says it is, then I'm guessing his right foot never lifts off the floor. The LS1 is only economical if you drive it sedately, keep working it hard and they will suck a stupid amount of petrol.

The comment on not wanting one to cross the simpson is purely on engine simplicity, a good TD42 is near indistructable, which is exactly what I'd want on a long tour the there is just too much that could go wrong on a LS1 transplant.

Don't get me wrong I'd love an LS1 in my truck, but I have no intentions of touring in it.

gumbs wrote:

grinch2 wrote:

gumbs wrote:Then you might as well rule out all the petrol combination, because if you drive hard enough to get 35L/100km in a TB42 you won't do much better in an LS1 or chev. So to make them remotely cost effective you'll have to put it on gas which ruins your touring capabilities. If you want to tour go for the simplest diesel setup which will give you the power you require. In your case I'd be selling your truck and just buying one with a TD42 in it. Take the wheels, lockers, bar work and winch out of yours. And chuck a cheap shit alloy bar on the front, and a set of 31/32s you should get $5-6k for it, add your other $10k and you'll have no problem getting a very nice late model GQ TD42 with a snail.

An LS1 is the last thing I would want if I was trying to cross the simpson.

can i ask why is that for experiance or opinion? i get about 18-20l/100km in my gq with ls1 on 35's and total of 7" lift driving fairly hard and highway sitting on 120-125km/hr if treated nicely and a more std truck i would expect better. towing my 1.5t camper bairly changes these figures and doesn't effect performance too much.

From the figures I've read GQs with LS1s are generally getting around your figures, about 20L/100km. But I've never heard of anyone managing to get figures as bad as this guy does in a TB42, so if the engine is properly setup like he says it is, then I'm guessing his right foot never lifts off the floor. The LS1 is only economical if you drive it sedately, keep working it hard and they will suck a stupid amount of petrol.

The comment on not wanting one to cross the simpson is purely on engine simplicity, a good TD42 is near indistructable, which is exactly what I'd want on a long tour the there is just too much that could go wrong on a LS1 transplant.

Don't get me wrong I'd love an LS1 in my truck, but I have no intentions of touring in it.

As mentioned I can do an exchange wiring harness for the LS1 so that makes the electronics simple. The LS1 electrics have no issues with water, they will pretty muck keep going under water, have not had any probs with comp trucks.

As for reliability for a tourer, I would take a stock standard LS1 that was designed by GM to do over 300000km,s over a TD42 that has been turbo's, etc and making 3 times the power it was designed for. Nearly every turbo TD42 has overheating issues. As long as the conversion is done properly you won't have any issues.

My LS1 with stock 80 series radiator and twin thermo's stayed cool over a 30+km run in very soft sand at 80km/h working very hard.
My fuel economy is about the same as the figures mentioned, and does not change alot between onroad and off. I have heard of figures as good as 10L/100km using the later 6L engines.

Also on a side note you will not get a duramax in for $22000, unless you get alot of the parts cheap and do it all yourself.

Steve

4bdan wrote:I would be holding out for a rolled GQ or GU with a TD42 and pull all the good gear over from that...

agree.... or just buy a decent GU with 4.2, or look on the Brunswick site and buy one already with the 6.5

killalux wrote:Also on a side note you will not get a duramax in for $22000, unless you get alot of the parts cheap and do it all yourself.

that was an early days off top of head quote from Heath when he first did his.. I thought it sounded 'extremely cheap' - still out of my price range by 25000

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/NISSAN-PATROL-GU ... 2a050ea5e8

buy this, the only useable thign will be the engine and stuff you want.
flog diffs for few grand, and SIMMS the rest.

351c on gas

Run 302c closed chambers which will get the compression up to just over 11 to 1 which the higher octane (100plus) of LPG will love.

Throw in a mild cam, aftermarked intake and free flowing exhaust and you'll be surprised by the power made on LPG.

I would either buy a gq with the 4.2 and swap in your toys or go for what bogged just posted.

gas will suck fo touring as will petrol in all reality.

The td42 goes pretty well with a bit of a turbo tweak and will do it all day with a minimum of fuss.

IMO it will be cheaper, better to tour with, easier to sell later.

yes it will make less power than the other 3 but it has everything you need unless you want to race offroad. and the positives outweight the less grunt.

Couple of things not mentioned here is with anything non standard, where do you get spares and service?
If its a fairly standard TD42 job, you could probably buy a part or two off a passing traveller due to them being common.
A broken LS1 Pootrol in the Simmo could be an expensive tow home

P.S I know a bloke who reckons he was getting 35mpg out of his 2F cruiser petrol with 4 speed. I think he got sorta mixed up converting from metric to imperial......

351ciofgrunt wrote:351c on gas

Run 302c closed chambers which will get the compression up to just over 11 to 1 which the higher octane (100plus) of LPG will love.

Throw in a mild cam, aftermarked intake and free flowing exhaust and you'll be surprised by the power made on LPG.

i agree thats the same set up my brother is running very impressed for what is is,

i done a big block 7.4 chev, very happy with it, get around 4.5klms per litre, cheaper to run than the tb42 & my brothers 351, plenty of power & a shitload of torqe, all up doing it myself cost me around 7k for 460hp all bolted up running using marks adaptor...

how do you guys go running carby V8's off road. Don't they play up on big hills and angles and stuff?

nah fine, set up mainly for gas & petrol as a back up coz not everywhere has gas,
but even on petrol i run a holley 750dp & my brothers 351 has a holley 650vac havent had any dramas off road
touch wood were going out tomorrow haha....