Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Posted: **Mon Apr 26, 2010 6:22 pm**

Anyone bought a cheezy racing front winch bar to find out that the 2.5 tonne bolt on eyelet recovery points need to be changed?

Ive found them to be great, however CCDA doesnt allow eyelets due to lifting load versus snatching loads....

So i need to unbolt these.... ive been left with 2 large holes, i want to replace them with a different style of tow hook.

I was simply thinking of getting some inch thick steel with a 20mm hole in the middle, welding it over the hole and running bow shackles...

I guess im just wondering if anyone has had to do this and has pictures of what they did particularly with the cheezy racing front bars....

I could leave the eyelets for looks, paint the black instead of red and run a different style of hook, however i do not have room on my chassis for a bolt on style so would have to be a custom style anyways....

cheers

Screwy

Posted: **Mon Apr 26, 2010 6:30 pm**

Also does anyone make an appropriate pre made point that i can weld on here or install here.... this would also be good....

I can make them, though making a hole 20mm big in inch thick pipe kind of sucks and isnt that neat with an oxy....

cheers guys

Posted: **Mon Apr 26, 2010 8:06 pm**

Screwy wrote:Anyone bought a cheezy racing front winch bar to find out that the 2.5 tonne bolt on eyelet recovery points need to be changed?

Ive found them to be great, however CCDA doesnt allow eyelets due to lifting load versus snatching loads....

So i need to unbolt these.... ive been left with 2 large holes, i want to replace them with a different style of tow hook.

I was simply thinking of getting some inch thick steel with a 20mm hole in the middle, welding it over the hole and running bow shackles...

I guess im just wondering if anyone has had to do this and has pictures of what they did particularly with the cheezy racing front bars....

I could leave the eyelets for looks, paint the black instead of red and run a different style of hook, however i do not have room on my chassis for a bolt on style so would have to be a custom style anyways....

cheers

Screwy

what load is the eyelet rated for?

Posted: **Mon Apr 26, 2010 8:33 pm**

joeblow wrote:
Screwy wrote:Anyone bought a cheezy racing front winch bar to find out that the 2.5 tonne bolt on eyelet recovery points need to be changed?

Ive found them to be great, however CCDA doesnt allow eyelets due to lifting load versus snatching loads....

So i need to unbolt these.... ive been left with 2 large holes, i want to replace them with a different style of tow hook.

I was simply thinking of getting some inch thick steel with a 20mm hole in the middle, welding it over the hole and running bow shackles...

I guess im just wondering if anyone has had to do this and has pictures of what they did particularly with the cheezy racing front bars....

I could leave the eyelets for looks, paint the black instead of red and run a different style of hook, however i do not have room on my chassis for a bolt on style so would have to be a custom style anyways....

cheers

Screwy
what load is the eyelet rated for?

Posted: **Mon Apr 26, 2010 8:36 pm**

my bad.....

yes....no where near enough.

Posted: **Mon Apr 26, 2010 9:22 pm**

Had this discussion with a guy out on a trail today who had a cheesy bar.

Considering Cheesy's reputation and how solid his bars are I'm suprised he puts them on there. A Litigation nightmare waiting to happen IMO.

If you any of you guys do have these style of bolt on eylets, or even the weld on ones, for god's sake don't snatch off them

To explain they're rated for a 2.5 Tonne static load, not a dynamic load such as when winching or snatching, a loaded GU patrol on the other end of an 8 tonne snatch might generate as much as 15-20 tonnes of force!!

Posted: **Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:00 pm**

Black Bull wrote:Had this discussion with a guy out on a trail today who had a cheesy bar.

Considering Cheesy's reputation and how solid his bars are I'm suprised he puts them on there. A Litigation nightmare waiting to happen IMO.

If you any of you guys do have these style of bolt on eylets, or even the weld on ones, for god's sake don't snatch off them

To explain they're rated for a 2.5 Tonne static load, not a dynamic load such as when winching or snatching, a loaded GU patrol on the other end of an 8 tonne snatch might generate as much as 15-20 tonnes of force!!

but an 8 tonne snatchy is it's breaking strength. a lifting eyelet is a safe working load of 2.5 tonne. which is usually a third of breaking strain

admittedly, i wouldn't go less than 3.2 SWL, but i would put money on your 8 tonne snatchy breaking before lifting eyelets...

if your generating 15-20 tonnes of force in a recovery, your doing the recovery wrongly. (and that's if a snatchy would stand up to it).

funny, shackles that you use to attach your snatchy to your points, or that you use to rig up your winch to the snatch block or whatever, are rated the same way as eyelets... are these now weaker than snatch straps too?

Posted: **Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:03 pm**

As above, most BOW shackles are only 2.5tonne or 3.2tonne S.W.L. anyway

Posted: **Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:15 pm**

Guys, It's Dynamic V's Static force. At the moment you come to the limit of your snatch and it recoils, yes peak forces can more than double the rated strength of the snatch. in a perfect world with a pul perfectly perpendicular to the mounting, yes it'd probably be ok, but recoveries are never perfect and high tensile bolts are just that, tensile, they have very little strength when in single shear

That's why you can shoot a wad of paper across the room with a rubber band

I've personaly seen 4.5 tonne shackles deforme to the point where they've had to be cut off.

Same as a tow ball is rated at 2.5 tones, yet they can snap off as was illustrated when that young guy got killed in Tassy in November.

I'm not saying that if your stuck, don't do it, but if there is an alternative, take it, and if it isn't then be bloody carefull, somebody sustaining a serious or fatal injury on a trip is the last thing anybody wants

Lastly, if you ever do have to snatch off some suspect point, attach some kind of damper to the actual point, use a jumper and some cable ties, if it does come loose at lease it wont go through a windscreen or somebodies head.

This is the reason why under CCDA rules even when using Synthetic rope the damper has to be physically attached to the hook

Posted: **Mon Apr 26, 2010 11:28 pm**

Black Bull wrote:Guys, It's Dynamic V's Static force. At the moment you come to the limit of your snatch and it recoils, yes peak forces can more than double the rated strength of the snatch. in a perfect world with a pul perfectly perpendicular to the mounting, yes it'd probably be ok, but recoveries are never perfect and high tensile bolts are just that, tensile, they have very little strength when in single shear

That's why you can shoot a wad of paper across the room with a rubber band

I've personaly seen 4.5 tonne shackles deforme to the point where they've had to be cut off.

Same as a tow ball is rated at 2.5 tones, yet they can snap off as was illustrated when that young guy got killed in Tassy in November.

I'm not saying that if your stuck, don't do it, but if there is an alternative, take it, and if it isn't then be bloody carefull, somebody sustaining a serious or fatal injury on a trip is the last thing anybody wants

Lastly, if you ever do have to snatch off some suspect point, attach some kind of damper to the actual point, use a jumper and some cable ties, if it does come loose at lease it wont go through a windscreen or somebodies head.

This is the reason why under CCDA rules even when using Synthetic rope the damper has to be physically attached to the hook

if bolts have poor sheer strength when high tensile (i.e. grade 8), why are pretty much every commercially available recovery point supplied with grade 8 bolts that are then mounted IN SHEER, generally single sheer too!!!! in fact, all bolt on recovery hooks i have seen are in single sheer load with 2 high tensile bolts...

oh wait, that's different right??? no it's not

BTW, for clarity, a high tensile bolt (metric 10.9 for instance) has higher tensile strength AND higher sheer strength than a metric 8.8

so, no, your wrong, bolts don't lose sheer strength to gain tensile strength. the higher the tensile rating, the higher the sheer as well.

http://pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/Nu ... index.html

is a good source on this.

a towball is rated at 2.5 tonne. but it's not a certified 2.5 tonne lifting SAFE WORKING LOAD.

oh, those lifting eye bolts, they are rated at that load at any angle of attachment. so in sheer...

there are heaps of different "ratings" out there. a safe working load rating is NOT comparable with "breaking load" or "towing load rating on a tow ball/pull rating of a winch". a safe working load is a much more conservative estimate.

if you need 7.5 tonnes of force to recover your 4bie, you have not thought the recovery through. build a ramp, rock stack, or get on the shovel!

if you've seen 4.7 tonne SWL shackles deformed, again, you were doing the recovery WRONGLY.

a 4.7 tonne shackle could be used to safely AIRLIFT an entire large 4bie. day in, day out using a helecopter or a crane.

i really really suggest you learn this stuff Black bull before posting wrongly IF you are opening a 4wd accessory store. as a vendor, your posts on here will reflect on your business.

oh, and the dampener isn't there because of some inherent weakness in the hook. it is there to dampen the stored energy in the event something lets go. the rules are on the hook because the rope isn't considered heavy enough to do damage.

Posted: **Tue Apr 27, 2010 6:32 am**

Im fully aware of the above, thats why im happy to change them.

Hense the question....

There are hundreds of cheezy bars out there..... surely not everyone, including all the winch trucks ive seen with them on them, still run the eyelets......

Short of that ill have to weld something up....

??????

screwy

Posted: **Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:01 am**

Screwy wrote:..........Short of that ill have to weld something up....

And that could potentially create a whole new can of worms.......

Can you prove that the weld is a ratable improvement over the std fitting

I've seen modified towbar tounges that have been "welded" onto the chassis mounting plates for a bullbar torn free.... ok it was welded by a backyarder and the weld never stood a chance under load, I had to re-fit the tounge and even with my tickets I couldnt legaly say or prove it would be a ratable setup...... it would require engineering at the very least.

The big issue like with all these mods is once one thing is improved it transfers the load into the next "weak link"..... if you create a snatch point thats ratable for the maximum amount the question then becomes is the bars mounting just as ratable as the improved snatch point its holding ?????

I recon breaking an eyelet would be less worrying than seeing an entire bullbar comming at you at gross knots

Kingy

Posted: **Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:15 am**

V8Patrol wrote: I recon breaking an eyelet would be less worrying than seeing an entire bullbar comming at you at gross knots

Kingy

True, but the bull bar has greater mass and would not accelerate much at all before gravity took over

Posted: **Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:21 am**

bad_religion_au wrote:
oh, those lifting eye bolts, they are rated at that load at any angle of attachment

are you sure about this part? I thought they were rated at straight pull, with a significant reduction in strength when pulling from an angle.

Posted: **Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:53 am**

I would not weld the recovery points to the front of the bar to cover the hole unless you were going to cut them into through the bar. Personally I would be welding them to the side of the winch frame and then drilling two holes through the lot and bolting it in too. I have seen some 10mm being hole sawed to create a nice neat hole. Plenty of lube and low speed.

Cris

Posted: **Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:16 pm**

bad_religion_au wrote: if bolts have poor sheer strength when high tensile (i.e. grade 8), why are pretty much every commercially available recovery point supplied with grade 8 bolts that are then mounted IN SHEER, generally single sheer too!!!! in fact, all bolt on recovery hooks i have seen are in single sheer load with 2 high tensile bolts...

oh wait, that's different right??? no it's not

It is, recovery points have 2 bolts keeping the recovery point in compression where it is generally pulled along a line 90 Degrees to the bolt, the eye bolts have one bolt and are pulled off angle and are mounted to a 6mm plate which can severely deform. ever seen bent chassis rails ? I've seen several customers with damaged rails on the front resulting from off angle recoveries.

bad_religion_au wrote: BTW, for clarity, a high tensile bolt (metric 10.9 for instance) has higher tensile strength AND higher sheer strength than a metric 8.8

so, no, your wrong, bolts don't lose sheer strength to gain tensile strength. the higher the tensile rating, the higher the sheer as well.

http://pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/Nu ... index.html

is a good source on this.

I never said that they "loose Tensile or loose shear" but the what I was referring to the Ductility of the bolt, a grade 4 bolt will deform to a certain point before it shears or snaps, however as the tensile strength increases the ductility of the bolt decreases or in laymans terms becomes more brittle. one of the reason I always use mild tensile bolts in bull bar mounts.

bad_religion_au wrote:
a towball is rated at 2.5 tonne. but it's not a certified 2.5 tonne lifting SAFE WORKING LOAD.

oh, those lifting eye bolts, they are rated at that load at any angle of attachment. so in sheer...

Firstly in a rigging situation the lifiting capacity of a chain sling is reduced after the angle of the chain/cable passes 45 Degrees.
In fact when i did a basic rigging course several years ago it was recommended to never go past 45 Degrees, the optimum angle between the "Arms" of the slings being somewhere around 60 degrees, so in short theoretically they're only rated to 45 degrees if you use generally accepted rigging practices

bad_religion_au wrote: there are heaps of different "ratings" out there. a safe working load rating is NOT comparable with "breaking load" or "towing load rating on a tow ball/pull rating of a winch". a safe working load is a much more conservative estimate.

if you need 7.5 tonnes of force to recover your 4bie, you have not thought the recovery through. build a ramp, rock stack, or get on the shovel!

Agreed, but we've all been in situations where the only option is a pull. I'm sure we've both seen 8t Snatch straps break ?

bad_religion_au wrote: if you've seen 4.7 tonne SWL shackles deformed, again, you were doing the recovery WRONGLY.

Really ? it was a 14t Bus we had a 20t sling but unfortunately the larger shackles would not fit in the tow points. my point was that the shackle can withstand much more than it's rated load for brief periods of time, referring to to the "Peak" forces that are generated in a recovery situation

bad_religion_au wrote: a 4.7 tonne shackle could be used to safely AIRLIFT an entire large 4bie. day in, day out using a helecopter or a crane.

Agreed. but let it drop 30 feet and come to the end of a solidly affixed cable or chain, you'd tear the point off the chassis

bad_religion_au wrote: i really really suggest you learn this stuff Black bull before posting wrongly IF you are opening a 4wd accessory store. as a vendor, your posts on here will reflect on your business.

I think I've demonstrated my knowledge on the subject quite well, and will be comfortable in the knowledge that nobody will get killed/maimed by products I sell.

bad_religion_au wrote: oh, and the dampener isn't there because of some inherent weakness in the hook. it is there to dampen the stored energy in the event something lets go. the rules are on the hook because the rope isn't considered heavy enough to do damage.

I agree, but again you've taken what I said out of context, a perfect example occurred at cliffhanger last year, a hook attached to some 10mm synthetic rope let go causing it to fly across the creek bed knocking several empty (thank god) spectators chairs flying.
Had the blanket been affixed to the hook, it would have dropped to the ground

Now that all said and done, I'll re-iterate my previous point, I didn't come and post up to knock Cheesy's Product, I merely pointed out what I thought was a shortfall in a otherwise very good product.

The other point behind my post was to try and educate guys as to how and what to hook your recovery gear to so as not to damage either the vehicle or themselves.

Posted: **Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:24 pm**

As an example off what I consider an acceptable recovery point, here's a photo of one half finished

Now after that was done the entire section of the chassis was fish plated with 6mm plate back 300mm down past the bend in the chassis, around the point itself was pre-heated and stitched over the initial root weld

Posted: **Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:13 pm**

Just to throw it in there, there's no reason to pre-heat steel of that thickness, unless you're working in less than freezing conditions..

Screwy, an easy way may to be to weld a square of plate (say 100x100 x 10) flat over the hole, then weld your new lug onto that. Assuming you have the room on the bar. If you go this option, just grind a prep on the sides of the square.

Posted: **Tue Apr 27, 2010 6:11 pm**

My idea was to cut the hole out into a rectangle vertically and slide a new plate into the bar which is 12 mm thick at the winch area.... and weld a plate to the back of it and weld it in at the front as well.....

though im left wondering what a minimum thickness would be to use on a vertical plate before it is drastically comprommised by sideways snatch actions.....

20mm ???

Posted: **Tue Apr 27, 2010 7:08 pm**

I assume we're talking about something like this?

The lugs aren't cut into the bar, just welded on, about an 8mm fillet. Something else will break before they do. They're made out of 20mm from memory, but I probably wouldn't go any less than 16mm.

If you're going to cut a slot, I wouldn't worry about welding a plate on the back, except maybe for re-inforcing once the lugs are welded in. Just weld them straight to the bar, front and back. IE Leave a couple of mm before it slides right through the bar, and weld the landing it leaves. Assuming you can get to the back directly. Not sure if that's what you meant anyway.

Posted: **Tue Apr 27, 2010 7:39 pm**

I seem to remember pics of a rear bar that Bubs built that had tabs similar to that, except they were an extension of the chassis mounting plate, extending through the bar and welded all round. from memory he used 16mm plate.

maybe look at slotting through the bar and welding tabs onto the chassis mounts

Posted: **Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:18 pm**

Dumb question here but is there a higher rated eyelet ????
I too have a cheezy bar & we question this when we were in Tassie

Look forward to seeing what comes from this tread & what the fix is

Cheers Dan

Posted: **Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:25 pm**

MUD000 wrote:Dumb question here but is there a higher rated eyelet ????
I too have a cheezy bar & we question this when we were in Tassie

Look forward to seeing what comes from this tread & what the fix is

Cheers Dan

Yes.

Cris

Posted: **Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:27 pm**

How high a rated can you get ??
Cheers Dan

Posted: **Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:31 pm**

The highest rated Eye Bolt i've seen is 20t. I don't think they come much higher before going to a weld on eye.

Posted: **Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:33 pm**

At a guess I would assume a 6 to 8 tonne would be needed ??
Cheers Dan

Posted: **Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:22 pm**

Narrowscopeofreality wrote:I assume we're talking about something like this?

The lugs aren't cut into the bar, just welded on, about an 8mm fillet. Something else will break before they do. They're made out of 20mm from memory, but I probably wouldn't go any less than 16mm.

If you're going to cut a slot, I wouldn't worry about welding a plate on the back, except maybe for re-inforcing once the lugs are welded in. Just weld them straight to the bar, front and back. IE Leave a couple of mm before it slides right through the bar, and weld the landing it leaves. Assuming you can get to the back directly. Not sure if that's what you meant anyway.

Yes this is exactly what i had in mind, except slotting out the bar, pushing it through and welding front and back.

I think that would be the strongest bet.

Screwy

Posted: **Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:27 pm**

MUD000 wrote:Dumb question here but is there a higher rated eyelet ????
I too have a cheezy bar & we question this when we were in Tassie

Look forward to seeing what comes from this tread & what the fix is

Cheers Dan

Im unsure if your eyelets are the same as mine, but mine are 2.5 tonne which is extremely low, seeing as the minimum bow shackle required by CCDA is currently 3.75 tonne.....

As far as an eyelet goes, yes you can go up to 15 + tonne as an eyelet.... But these are absolutely huge and not to mention.......

They still are not allowed by CCDA. NO eyelets are to be allowed under CCDA due to type of load they are designed to carry.

As in my post above, the pic of Narrowscopeofreality tow hooks is the answer except a notched into the barwork version.

I will be doing this mod over the next week or 2 and will post up my progress. I also have a Cheezy rear bar that has the same problem, and ill be doing the same thing there.

Screwy

Posted: **Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:36 pm**

Funny thing today, had a customer come in after having his new rear bar fitted to his Hilux. he was looking for rear recovery points

Turns out he's a rigger for a crane company and was Livid after complaining about the "recovery" points on the rear bar and then being told to use both of them if he didn't think they were strong enough

the bar in question fitted to a Hilux (ARB Stock Image)

None of the bolt on style hooks would fit so he's gone to get some 5/8" plate welded up the sides where it mounts to the rails

Posted: **Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:45 pm**

i reckon if you take that black thing out in the middle and use that point for recovery it might be the best idea.

Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Cheezy racing front bar, tow hook mods

Cheezy racing front bar, tow hook mods

Re: Cheezy racing front bar, tow hook mods

Re: Cheezy racing front bar, tow hook mods