Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Im in the hunt for a new beast like a 80's cruiser or a 90 prado.
(nh pajero just doesn't have the pull)

Im only looking for a LPG car and have seen a number that have snorkels.

My (very limited) understanding is that a snorkel is used so the car can drive and not take water into the intake.

for a diesel that would be ok but for petrol/gas by the time the car is that deep in water wouldn't it short out the electrics and stop it from running?



The thing im asking is are snorkels useful on LPG or just used to make the car look good?

Just something ive been thinking abt n any info on it would be great.

No, it wouldn't necessarily short out the electrics. Hence the need for a snorkel. If this was the case, there would be no petrol comp trucks what so ever.

yes they are just as usefull on a diesel as the lpg/petrol,
newer petrol/ lpg engines will run breifly under water as long as the ecu (engine computer) remains dry....put tarp across the front of your truck before your cross extra protection...creates bow wave and stops water entering engine bay...so long as your moving

its not for looks..... oh and just becaUse you have a snorkel it dosent mean you should drive in water up to your eyeballs just because your engine can still run.......they also help in dusty conditions.......

yup - and if you know you do a lot of water crossing obviously steps are taken to waterproof the electrics as well.

Honestly, i hate the look of snorkels - but i had to get one due to nearly drowing my zuk a few times - it just wasnt worth the risk and i'd rather have a slightly uglier car than one with no engine! =)

no manufacturer will suggest anymore that you can drive through water safely with a snorkel installed.

they all now suggest snorkels are to get your intake up above the "dusty road" surface.

its fair enough...tell people they can drive through deep water and its obvious what will happen.

my LS1 runs underwater, but without the snorkel i would be screwed

Most new petrol 4wds will run under water as much as a diesel as long as you do not drown it. Snorkels are great but do not assume that if fitted by a professional fitter that they are fully sealed. Check them.

Cris

Yom wrote:no manufacturer will suggest anymore that you can drive through water safely with a snorkel installed.

they all now suggest snorkels are to get your intake up above the "dusty road" surface.

its fair enough...tell people they can drive through deep water and its obvious what will happen.

Add a precleaner if you are driving in dusty conditions.

they actually increase fuel economy as well (i know from real world experience)

flyinwall wrote:they actually increase fuel economy as well (i know from real world experience)

Are you saying less fuel used per kilometer or More fuel used per kilometer.

a lot of people claim increased economy due to the ram effect it has on the airbox.... i'd say you'd need a dam big engine to notice anything significant... the air inlet on a g16b (suzuki) engine is like, 1" square... lol so any sort of ram effect would be negated by that.

alien wrote:a lot of people claim increased economy due to the ram effect it has on the airbox.... i'd say you'd need a dam big engine to notice anything significant... the air inlet on a g16b (suzuki) engine is like, 1" square... lol so any sort of ram effect would be negated by that.

The 2h in my 75ser ( before i turboed it) was helped a little by the snorkel, not alot tho and not until about 95 kmh. At the very least 0 psi in the intake is better than vacuum.

EDIT: Bad english

On some vehicles fuel economy actually gets worse when a snorkel is fitted.

Cris

also depends on the snorkel you fit as they are all far from equal.

My favourite is the guys that have the uber cool backwards facing snorkel, looks great, on a dyno it goes good, put it on the highway at 100kmh and the vacuum created at the entrance starves the engine of air making it run rich as until it all just explodes (diesel)

But seriously, some snorkels really are just wank (can I say that in a forum?) Do some research into cold air induction kits for 4wd's and you'll find a few interesting facts. Airflow make some really good ones for mostly newer fourby's that use a larger head to create positive pressure in the intake at relatively low air speeds and have modified air boxes etc.
DO NOT confuse airflow with airtec.

cheers for all the info guys...

i posted another thread about making a hilux surf into a 8 seater... anyone done this either?

you'll need to talk to an engineer about how to mount the third row and seatbelts.

I'm only in the know for QLD but I would assume that you'll need to have it certified for the change in seating capacity. The engineer should be able to tell you pretty quick what to do though.

basically up here you are required to reinforce the area using a 50 x 100 plate (5mm thick with rounded corners so that if it turns, it doesn't tear the panel) behind the panels you're mounting. Use high tensile bolts of course and because you're already going to the trouble, fit retractable seatbelts, you can buy these from most auto parts stores, 'clippan' is a brand I've used before, does the job.

Doesn't hold 3 extra people but maybe look at the third row seats from a GQ patrol. Pick them up really cheap these days. Under $50.

anzac wrote: My favourite is the guys that have the uber cool backwards facing snorkel, looks great, on a dyno it goes good, put it on the highway at 100kmh and the vacuum created at the entrance starves the engine of air making it run rich as until it all just explodes (diesel)

I'm curious as to where you drew this conclusion from.

anzac wrote:also depends on the snorkel you fit as they are all far from equal.

My favourite is the guys that have the uber cool backwards facing snorkel, looks great, on a dyno it goes good, put it on the highway at 100kmh and the vacuum created at the entrance starves the engine of air making it run rich as until it all just explodes (diesel)

But seriously, some snorkels really are just wank (can I say that in a forum?) Do some research into cold air induction kits for 4wd's and you'll find a few interesting facts. Airflow make some really good ones for mostly newer fourby's that use a larger head to create positive pressure in the intake at relatively low air speeds and have modified air boxes etc.
DO NOT confuse airflow with airtec.

Bollocks.

Ram air at legal speeds does nothing (max gain or loss is 0.5% of an atmosphere, that's 0.07psi), the actual pressure is less because you don't get stagnation unless you've got an intake as wide as your car.

Bigger snorkel heads don't make any difference either.
Besides, petrol fuel economy isn't changed by intake restriction. Because you've got a dirty big intentional restriction called a throttle.

and the only reason people face the head backwards on their fourby is to stop mud and stuff getting flung into it buy them or a car in front

here is some info I found on the subject of airflow cold air inductions.

ACAIS is much more
The ACAIS is designed to improve the fuel efficiency and power of your vehicle. These two goals may appear contradictory, but we have succeeded in combining them. In the process, we did not forget style; fitting like a glove, the Snorkel complements your vehicle. Once installed, your 4WD will be ready for new adventures and maybe some river crossings! Not all snorkel body designs in the big wide world produce a cold air induction effect. This effect improves fuel efficiency while improving also engine power.
GibsonRM has been conducting airflow studies, friction loss assessments and performance testing in its laboratories for many years to achieve this effect. In the past, physical presentation took a back-step to operation which was always foremost in the design. However, in recent years, our customer base has become more discerning about the appearance of Snorkels. This motivated us to refine the “look” and the “fit”.
Like many examples in nature, the study of airflow trajectory and pressure gave birth to shapes with “perfect fit to purpose” where elegance and efficiency are combined. A new range of ACAIS was born, one which increases the performance and efficiency of your 4WD.

How does it work
A combustion engine needs air and fuel to operate. The more air and oxygen flow into the intake manifold, the more efficient is the combustion.
The ACAIS harvests fresh air at roof level where it is the least disturbed. This air contains less contaminant and is cooler than air absorbed from the engine bay. When the air is cooler, it contains more oxygen.
Modern vehicles are fitted with engine management systems; these are
computers which measure accurately in real-time all inputs available to the engine to improve its efficiency. Consequently, the availability of cooler air inflow results in more power and torque.
Three main parts constitute an ACAIS: a “hat” we call the “Air Ram”, a Snorkel tube we call the “Body” and an air filter called the PACC. The three parts aredesigned to complement each other in their efficiency.

The Air Ram
Air entering the Air Ram swirls violently, creating a cyclonic effect. The heaviest particles are ejected by the centrifugal force to the periphery of the swirl. There, they hit the vertical ribs where air pressure takes over to eject them out of the four slots at the base of the Air Ram. At this point, the air pressure pushes them out. The finer particles that are not ejected are removed by the vehicle air filter.
Comparison: not all Air Rams are equal in performance.
It is preferable for the Air Ram to have an open face without a screen
because the screen deflects the airflow. The surface ratio of the open face to outlet aperture must be a minimum of 1.4:1. If the ratio is lesser, it will be insufficient to create the cyclone action that separates heavy contaminants effectively. Approximately 30% of the incoming airflow (above 25kph / 15mph) is used in the separation process.
At GibsonRM, we ensure that the Airflow range uses a minimum of 1.4:1
for the 3” air ram, 1.7:1 for the 3.5” air ram and 2:1 for the cold air
induction air ram.
Any deflection of the incoming airflow must be avoided since it
dramatically affects efficiency. Deflections may be caused by:
1- Air Ram situated in close proximity to the bonnet/hood of the
vehicle,
2- Air Ram with a curved or foiled roof,
3- Turning Air Ram away from travel direction,
4- Where Air Ram design makes the air go back on itself at an
angle greater than 100 degrees.

If the Air Ram is turned away from the direction of travel, it will lessen the
necessary positive pressure. In extreme situations, at higher speed, a
vacuum may be generated causing irreversible engine damage!
Incorrect Air Ram design may cause excessive induction noise, lack of
separation and air blocking by vortex at various speeds. This air blocking
will limit airflow. This is a common occurrence when “looks” take priority
over functionality.
If the Air Ram is moulded on the body of the snorkel (for aesthetic
reasons) it does not provide particle separation, thus all contaminants
need to be removed by the internal air filter. This increases the
maintenance cycle of the air cleaner. Furthermore, this configuration may
cause a vacuum into the snorkel, thus increasing the risk of engine
damage

The Body
Now that the air is free of large particles, it starts travelling down the snorkel body in a straight line. The body may be of two types, induction or non-induction. In the induction case, the air slows down because it enters in a larger volume, the plenum chamber. The swirling created by the Air Ram diminishes, thus reducing friction losses. There, the air is buffered, immediately available for the air box at positive pressure. The engine management system can use it readily.

Comparison: not all bodies are equal in performance.
In the case of a non-induction body, the air passes down directly to the
bonnet tubing and ducting into the air box. While this technique increases
efficiency and engine performance, it is not as effective as the cold air
induction type.

The PACC
The PACC is a replacement for the air filter: while it removes the smallest of particles, it compresses the air to make it available at even higher pressure than when it arrives from the body.
Comparison: not all air cleaners are equal in performance.
Commonly, there are two types of air cleaner fitted to cars by
manufacturers: the Flat Air Cleaner and the Cyclonic Air Cleaner, both
fitted with paper filters. While they conform to emission laws, they are not
fuel or power efficient. The Cyclonic is the most effective of the two types.

Some after market suppliers replace the paper filter by a foam oil filter to
further increase airflow and thus power to the engine. However, what is
gained in power is lost in filtration. Generally, a paper filter will suppress
particles down to 30 microns while foam oil filters will not filter below 40 to
50 microns. Larger particle sizes will increase exponentially the risk of
damage to the power plant.

Gibson RM’s goal is to filter particles to less than 10 microns.
GibsonRM has improved the already better Cyclonic Air Cleaner by
creating the Parabolic Air Cleaner Cyclonic, the PACC. The PACC has
the least friction losses while maintaining particles filtering to less than 10
microns at all engine speeds. When combined to the ACAIS, it further
provides dramatic improvements in performance and efficiency across the
total power range of the engine.

Conclusion
Purchasing an ACAIS ought to improve your car’s performance at most engine speeds. Furthermore, it should reduce fuel consumption and make your engine run cleaner. This is future proofing your adventures.

call it bollocks if you like but if you take the time to read it, it's all pretty logical.

For the record, the air intake backwards comment was based on snorkels like this
http://www.biders4wd.com/images/StainlessSnorkle.jpg
and
http://www.sundownengineering.com.au/me ... ffffdc.jpg

Turning the head of your snorkel around to stop mud etc while off road is fine as you aren't doing high enough speeds to create a problem (well normally any way)

and if I put a small magnet on the fuel line, install a hyclone on the intake and drop a moth ball in the fuel tank I will reverse gravity and my fuel econamy will be so good it will actually reverse and start making fuel which I can then sell back to the fuel companies

I had a snorkel on my 1hz 80. You wouldn't believe the performace gains. Before the snorkel it would drop back to 80 on the mooney mooney hill. Now it spins 37's on stock gearing in third gear and I have to back off to half-throttle going up mooney. I can't wait to fit a hiclone. I rekon i'll beable to tow double b's up the hill faster than they can pull themselves!

anzac wrote:call it bollocks if you like but if you take the time to read it, it's all pretty logical.

For the record, the air intake backwards comment was based on snorkels like this
http://www.biders4wd.com/images/StainlessSnorkle.jpg
and
http://www.sundownengineering.com.au/me ... ffffdc.jpg

Turning the head of your snorkel around to stop mud etc while off road is fine as you aren't doing high enough speeds to create a problem (well normally any way)

Yes complete bollocks. Just like the insanely long marketing drivel you just cut and pasted.
0.07psi at 100km/h. That's SFA.

Show me proof of this engine damage from a rearward facing snorkle.

KiwiBacon wrote:

anzac wrote:call it bollocks if you like but if you take the time to read it, it's all pretty logical.

For the record, the air intake backwards comment was based on snorkels like this
http://www.biders4wd.com/images/StainlessSnorkle.jpg
and
http://www.sundownengineering.com.au/me ... ffffdc.jpg

Turning the head of your snorkel around to stop mud etc while off road is fine as you aren't doing high enough speeds to create a problem (well normally any way)

Yes complete bollocks. Just like the insanely long marketing drivel you just cut and pasted.
0.07psi at 100km/h. That's SFA.

I happen to agree a rear facing snorkel may starve the engine for air flow but this will just stall it or it will have less power.

As for fuel economy a snorkel will increase fuel economy but only by sweeet fa. I am drawing this conclusion that instead of drawing the warmer air in and around the bonnet the snorkel allow cooler air to be attained which will be more dence and the car will run leaner on the fuel. Having said that youd be lucky to see a 0.1l per 100km difference


Show me proof of this engine damage from a rearward facing snorkle.

i h

anzac wrote:call it bollocks if you like but if you take the time to read it, it's all pretty logical.

For the record, the air intake backwards comment was based on snorkels like this
http://www.biders4wd.com/images/StainlessSnorkle.jpg
and
http://www.sundownengineering.com.au/me ... ffffdc.jpg

Turning the head of your snorkel around to stop mud etc while off road is fine as you aren't doing high enough speeds to create a problem (well normally any way)

i too would like to see some proof obviously you believe everything you read or your a seller of that companys products then engine will suck what ever it needs plus by the time it bends and twists around your engine bay it wouldnt do anything...

on my gq td42 na i run mine back wards when i had my safari snorkel on i tested it both ways.. throttle response power and drivability where greatly improved when facing backwards when facing fowards it drove like shit..

Wambat wrote:and the only reason people face the head backwards on their fourby is to stop mud and stuff getting flung into it buy them or a car in front

Bullshit, I have spoken to people who do it to there comp cars, and certain cars with certain snorkle setups actually improve with reverse facing heads.

dmck wrote:The thing im asking is are snorkels useful on LPG or just used to make the car look good?

The mav is dual fuel and I just did a longer trip (than normal) on gas on the highway, had the snorkel head facing backwards (to stop bugs going straight in). It would only get to about 100kmh (with 36's so about 120) but no quicker. I stopped on the way and turned it forwards again. When I did, I could get it to 120 (145ish). Plus the difference in torque at lower speeds with the cooler air is definitely noticeable which is one benefit of a snorkel.

I get about 220-240km out of 80 litres of gas around town and 330-350 on the highway. That's on 5"+2" lift and 36s.

hey cranky can you ellaborate on your waterproof setup please

I can see how the particle separation feature integrated into most commercially available heads may be compromised be having the head facing 'the wrong way'.