Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Ok. so i was looking at moving my winch to be mid mounted so that i have better approach clearance. Now given that my PTO output shaft faces forwards that meant i had resigned myself to going to an electric winch. That meant i had to sell the PTO winch (probably at a loss) then spend more on an electric winch, then have that souped so i can compete.

Then while looking around at the twin motor mounts available i had an idea

What if i mount the PTO winch in the rear, then adapt a coupler to an electric motor to power the winch that way i have -

1. freedom to mount the winch wherever i want, upside down, whatever
2. I can run twin and triple motors in a different spot so long as i can get a shaft to the input of the winch
3. The PTO winch is already internally braked via the worm drive
4. Full speed reverse winching/spool out under power negating the need for an air free spool
5. Strong winch internals with a wide drum from factory that can fit a crap load of rope on it.

Then i hit a snag

The thomas uses a 50:1 internal drive reduction. 8724's are 134:1 and lowmounts are even lower. So that would leave me with a huge line speed but i think the motors would struggle to pull with that lack of reduction.

So what are people's thoughts? would the motors bog down and struggle, or would they just slow down under load to whatever they would if they were powering a normal winch (at the end of the day it's the same load and required watts of power needed to do the job.

anybody got some pics of how the motors mount to a winch so i can start thinking about how to take drive off the motors?

any ideas how to get the required reduction?

Your going from an engine driven PTo to an electrical one .. even at idle any motor capable of moving a 4x4 will have miles more grunt than a battery powered 12 or 24V motor .. I would think you would struggle with the lack of reduction gearining in the winch .. would likely work out cheaper to sell the PTO stuff and get yourself a highmount.

love_mud wrote:Your going from an engine driven PTo to an electrical one .. even at idle any motor capable of moving a 4x4 will have miles more grunt than a battery powered 12 or 24V motor .

I don't doubt this for a minute. It pains me that i would have to go electric but there's no easy way to reverse the direction of the shaft out the gearbox. And there's no getting around the fact that in a competition it's handy to be able to drive assist and not worry about overrunning the winch.

love_mud wrote: .. I would think you would struggle with the lack of reduction gearining in the winch .. would likely work out cheaper to sell the PTO stuff and get yourself a highmount.

A quick search on the interwebs shows that electric motors run at around 1900 - 3000 RPM's. I did a quick calculation and on my gearing (50:1 and a 80mm diameter drum shaft) and 2500RPM gives around 11m a minute line speed. Which doesn't sound right to me. Given that you would get that out of an electric winch with a minimum of 135:1 or more they would be slow as buggery.

Edit: Factory line speed specs for an 8724 are 22.4m/min. Back calculating this given a drum diameter of 90mm gives a motor rpm of a little over 10 000RPM. Ergo, on mine the same motor would give a line speed of 56m/min. Fast, and sounds good in theory but only if the motors don't burn out.

As for cost love mud - here's the break down

Sell mine. get 1000 bucks for the whole lot if i'm lucky and patient.

High mount - 1800 bucks thereabouts if i get second hander. so after selling mine - 800 bucks
second motor - 300
twin motor adaptor - 600
Beef up casing, bracing etc - god knows. but better than 500 bucks
widen drum - again god knows, couple of hundred maybe. say 300 bucks if i get an engineering mob to do it. i really am guessing

Total - 2500. Given that i've seen second hand competition winches for sale for over 3 grand i reckon thats conservative

To do mine -

Already have winch that's strong, braked internally, and will take whatever HP you can throw at it. Has an overload failsafe built into it (and i've never broken a shear pin and i've been so stuck i've winched trees over getting out)

Two motors - 600
adaptor - 600
engineer a coupler - maybe 500 down at the engineering works to cut a spline into a piece of steel and weld that to a shaft to go into a uni joint or even weld onto a bush with the appropriate woodruff key to go straight onto the winch.

total 1700 and i know the winch back to front, and it's history. And i can place the motors in a better place to keep the mud and crap out of them.

Suzuki Tcase after the motor and before the winch??

Good selection of high and low ratios available.

Interesting concept if you used the rear output to the PTO, the front output to one motor to give high speed spool using the neutral position of the tcase (1:1, equivalent of "4wd neutral"), and another motor to the input of the tcase to give a geared mid range (~1.5:1, "2wd high") and low range (~4:1 "2 or 4wd low"). Front output mounted motor could freewheel if you can't get "2 low"

DAMKIA wrote:Suzuki Tcase after the motor and before the winch??

Good selection of high and low ratios available. Intersting concept if you used the rear output to the PTO, the front output to one motor to give high speed spool using the neutral position of the tcase (1:1), and another motor to the input of the tcase to give a geared mid range (1.5:1) and low range (4:1)

That's a seriously awesome idea. The first thing that sprung to mind was how many HP would the tcase absorb and waste. Particularly given that the self braking mechanism of a worm drive is because of a 45% power transmission efficiency compared to the 70% of a spur gear like that found in a high mount. You could probably run a lighter oil in the case given that it's only going to get 20HP through it at best. I might try and find a ruined winch somewhere and get the gear that the motor goes into and have that welded to a flange. Bingo bango cheap adaptor for the purposes of R and D. I wonder how the gears would go with 10 000 RPM?

rockcrawler31 wrote:

DAMKIA wrote:Suzuki Tcase after the motor and before the winch??

Good selection of high and low ratios available. Intersting concept if you used the rear output to the PTO, the front output to one motor to give high speed spool using the neutral position of the tcase (1:1), and another motor to the input of the tcase to give a geared mid range (1.5:1) and low range (4:1)

That's a seriously awesome idea. The first thing that sprung to mind was how many HP would the tcase absorb and waste. Particularly given that the self braking mechanism of a worm drive is because of a 45% power transmission efficiency compared to the 70% of a spur gear like that found in a high mount. You could probably run a lighter oil in the case given that it's only going to get 20HP through it at best. I might try and find a ruined winch somewhere and get the gear that the motor goes into and have that welded to a flange. Bingo bango cheap adaptor for the purposes of R and D

So I can patent that idea???? I'll just takes me shares of the profits

no dramas Damkia mate, so that means you'll share the cost of the experiment with me?? awesome, you're a legend

rockcrawler31 wrote:no dramas Damkia mate, so that means you'll share the cost of the experiment with me?? awesome, you're a legend

I'm so broke I can't even pay attention....

The Zuke is capable of being spun up to input speed of ~ 5000+ rpm off the back of the gearbox, so rpm's shouldn't be an issue....

DAMKIA wrote:The Zuke is capable of being spun up to input speed of ~ 5000+ rpm off the back of the gearbox, so rpm's shouldn't be an issue....

nice. next step is to find a zook box for sale. off to google i go

I would have thought in terms of space etc that there would ba any number of options to chose from when it comes to small geared reduction boxes, do the figures and get the reduction you want, adapt and wallah

Tiny wrote:I would have thought in terms of space etc that there would ba any number of options to chose from when it comes to small geared reduction boxes, do the figures and get the reduction you want, adapt and wallah

between 2.5 and 2.6 to 1. Got any other suggestions for sources of said boxes? I mean, is there an industry that would regularly use something like that? The good part is that there is a flange on the input on the winch that can be taken off so that hydraulic motors can be bolted on there. so i could fabricate a mount plate to bolt on to that that directly mounts any reduction box on to it

rockcrawler31 wrote:

Tiny wrote:I would have thought in terms of space etc that there would ba any number of options to chose from when it comes to small geared reduction boxes, do the figures and get the reduction you want, adapt and wallah

between 2.5 and 2.6 to 1. Got any other suggestions for sources of said boxes? I mean, is there an industry that would regularly use something like that? The good part is that there is a flange on the input on the winch that can be taken off so that hydraulic motors can be bolted on there. so i could fabricate a mount plate to bolt on to that that directly mounts any reduction box on to it

flanged inline like on this motor http://www.cmggroup.com.au/CMG_Transmis ... nicase.php

or maybe something like this would work http://cgi.ebay.com.au/REDUCTION-GEAR-B ... 3a5af23727

worth having a look around

I did see some industrial gearboxes on the web, but the problem was most of them were very INDUSTRIAL



I'll do a bit of ringing around on monday. A zook box would have the appropriate gearing and for 200 bucks or so you can't go wrong. It's just the losses i would be considering

Do you have the Thomas PTO or is it one of those Toyota ones. You know you can get the Thomas in an Electric version, check the link below and scroll down to the blue one on the 4th page.

http://www.ghequipment.com.au/products/ ... ochure.pdf

mickyd555 wrote:Do you have the Thomas PTO or is it one of those Toyota ones. You know you can get the Thomas in an Electric version, check the link below and scroll down to the blue one on the 4th page.

http://www.ghequipment.com.au/products/ ... ochure.pdf

I have seen those, but at 475:1 reduction they line pull at something around 4.4m/min. Great for industry and farmers, not so appropriate for us. More or less what i'm trying to achieve though, just not so slow

why not run a a hydraulic motor on the winch and use a power steer pump to feed it.

saw an article on an IBEX years ago with a mid mount winch. ran to the back first through a pulley then off to the front. then all you had to do was wack in a snatch block to a tree and you could double line pull backwards.

pongo wrote:why not run a a hydraulic motor on the winch and use a power steer pump to feed it.

saw an article on an IBEX years ago with a mid mount winch. ran to the back first through a pulley then off to the front. then all you had to do was wack in a snatch block to a tree and you could double line pull backwards.

cost. Huge cost.

Motor, variable vane pump (power steer isn't going to cut it), reservoir, cooler, valve body, hoses. All adds up to massive costs. Then you got to find somewhere to fit it all.

I think the toyota PTO boxes have both forward and rearward outputs...worth looking into anyway.

How big is the the zook transfer?
I've seen pictures of them on ebay but its hard to gauge the size.

if its a thomas pto take the drive unit apart and spin the shaft and plates around so the pto drive exits to the rear

problem solved

pcman wrote:if its a thomas pto take the drive unit apart and spin the shaft and plates around so the pto drive exits to the rear

problem solved

Hmm. So you're saying you can spin the output housing on the gearbox 180 degrees and spin the gears inside the housing 180 degrees so they still mesh?

dogbreath_48 wrote:I think the toyota PTO boxes have both forward and rearward outputs...worth looking into anyway.

The one on my 45 ( with 75 ser 5 speed) did. Man they are an aaaaawesome winch. Could pull the front end through a metre of hard mud in 5th gear. I put an electric Thomas on my 75 and it was crap in comparison.

pcman wrote:if its a thomas pto take the drive unit apart and spin the shaft and plates around so the pto drive exits to the rear

problem solved

From memory they have a plate at the back side you can remove, take the yoke off the front and slip it in the back. Not sure if you need to go flippin gears around tho. I was told it was there as an option to run a rear mount PTO winch as well as a front mount. The lever inside the cab would go forwards or rearwards to select which output you wanted to drive.

BadMav wrote:
From memory they have a plate at the back side you can remove, take the yoke off the front and slip it in the back. Not sure if you need to go flippin gears around tho. I was told it was there as an option to run a rear mount PTO winch as well as a front mount. The lever inside the cab would go forwards or rearwards to select which output you wanted to drive.

Farkin cool Top tech guys. I'll check it out when i get home. I'll be stoked if i don't have to change to eleccy.

its a few years since i pulled it apart but worst case is you have too get the shaft machined


front of box



rear of box




99% certain it will be reversable i know the winch head is cause i rebuilt that and fitted the shaft pointing out the front rather than the back in the first place WHOOPS

pcman wrote:its a few years since i pulled it apart but worst case is you have too get the shaft machined

99% certain it will be reversable i know the winch head is cause i rebuilt that and fitted the shaft pointing out the front rather than the back in the first place WHOOPS

Thanks for that. looking like a goer.

I don't think it matters what side the shaft comes out of the winch body you can make it spool correctly by changing the direction the rope comes on to the drum. How did you get the bull gear off the winch main shaft? i've had the end plate off and the bolts out but it wouldn't come out, i'm guessing its a press fit

rockcrawler31 wrote:

pongo wrote:why not run a a hydraulic motor on the winch and use a power steer pump to feed it.

saw an article on an IBEX years ago with a mid mount winch. ran to the back first through a pulley then off to the front. then all you had to do was wack in a snatch block to a tree and you could double line pull backwards.

cost. Huge cost.

Motor, variable vane pump (power steer isn't going to cut it), reservoir, cooler, valve body, hoses. All adds up to massive costs. Then you got to find somewhere to fit it all.

why variable vane?

have you actually priced the stuff and priced the elect stuff including second battery etc etc?

Serg

uninformed wrote:
why variable vane?

have you actually priced the stuff and priced the elect stuff including second battery etc etc?

Serg

From what i gather, the variable vane pumps run minimum fluid until you actually use the controls, then ramp it up the further you push the lever. The way it was explained to me was that you don't heat up the oil so much as it's not always running full volume/pressure via the bypass. I think that was the term too, whatever the name was it was the type where you have a swash plate that gives variable pump volume. I have priced hydraulic gear, there was a couple of threads on here about it. The final conclusion more or less was that hydraulic can be faster and stronger than electric but definately more exxy.

Load sensed variable piston pump is what they would have been talking about. Good stuff but costs could quite easy get outta control. Variable vanes pumps are about, but by design are usually used in low pressure systems.

Cheap and simple gear pump run of your existing PTO, basic solenoid valve or cable controlled manual valve and mount motor to winch. A bit of careful design and mounting of the oil tank and a cooler may not be nessasry.

From the $$$ you were kicking around, the hydraulic setup could still end up in the same ballpark.

rockcrawler31 wrote:
Thanks for that. looking like a goer.

I don't think it matters what side the shaft comes out of the winch body you can make it spool correctly by changing the direction the rope comes on to the drum. How did you get the bull gear off the winch main shaft? i've had the end plate off and the bolts out but it wouldn't come out, i'm guessing its a press fit

bull gear?? you mean the big brass/bronze gear its a very tight fit flat punch and a hammer carefull not to flare the end of the shaft out


http://rapidshare.com/files/390331857/T ... 8.tif.html

thats a copy of the manual or the winches its a multipage image only somet programs can view it correctly