Outer Limits 4x4 Board

I was on a long road trip today in my HJ60 and on the way home I was cruising at about 100-110kph when the temp got to within about 3mm of the red so I dropped to 90kph and after 5km it started to drop and was at the half mark after another 5km of driving.

Then as I was going up a small hill we started to smell what we thought was electrical burning and at the same time I started to lose power and had enough life left in the motor to pull over safely before it died.

Jumped out because we noticed smoke from the engine bay, opened her up and saw all the smoke (there was alot) was coming from under the heat sheild that covers the exhaust manifold. This had my mate and I puzzled as we were positive we smelt something electrical but there just isnt any wires anywhere near there.

So other info is we had the heater on full, and the overflow bottle spat some fluid out.

The car still cranks but wont start. Both batteries are still full of charge.

Hoping this isnt the end of the old girl.

Does it still have coolant in it? Sounds like you cooked it.

Sounds well cooked to me too. You should have stopped as soon as the needle went up.

Any way you should be able to get it running. First check the fuel pump is opening. disconnect the rod between the pump aand the edic motor and it will spring into the drive position. Check that the glow plugs are still functioning by putting a light/multimeter on one and see if there is something when you turn the key to on. Try and start it. If it still doesn't start, crack each injector while cranking to see if fuel is getting up there.

The smoke i'm guessing is steam. You may have blown the head gasket near the exhaust manifold. Even so you should still be able to get it running on some of the cylinders.

Worst case the head is fubar. 2h heads do like to crack when overheated, and it may affect all cylinders.

I would say my head gasket is gone too, but hopng the head is fine.

Ive done the EDIC motor this morning and also cracked the fuel bleed nut to see if theres still pressure in the system...there is.

Ill try the glow plugs tomorrow and injectors if theyre not too hard to get to.

If they all check out ok and still only cranks does that mean my head is gone or just lost all my compression?

Also the oil seems to be water free, Ive been told that this is a good sign and that the damage if any will be in the head. Is this true?

I think I maybe able to get a 2H head off an 88 model 60 series, mines 84 was there any differences?

Would you just change the gasket and see if the engine will start? or would you change the head at the same time?

Thanks for the help guys

when you pull the head get it crack tested.

I'd check compression first and make sure that the head is the problem for sure. Most likely it is cracked and possibly warped which is why it won't start from lack of compression. If it is the head you'll see all the cracks spidering out from the pre-combustion chambers when you pull it off.

Pull the head off before making any decisions. Have it crack tested and check it's not warped, but if it's bad you'll see the cracks easily anyway.

Take a good look at the pistons too. They can crack from excessive heat.

THe fact it overheated enough to die and cause restarting problems means you'd be a very lucky man to get away with just a head gasket.

Plus there's also the issue of why it overheated in the first place.

oldmate wrote:Plus there's also the issue of why it overheated in the first place.

Its the radiator, it had a bit of junk in it that i noticed. I was wanting to put in a big alloy radiator in the there as soon as I get a bit of room in the backyard to play around with the the custom install.

The car never had a problem city driving it has only ever crept up the temp once I hit the open road and drive at 110kph.

oldmate wrote:Pull the head off before making any decisions. Have it crack tested and check it's not warped, but if it's bad you'll see the cracks easily anyway.

Take a good look at the pistons too. They can crack from excessive heat.

Makes sense, I dont think Ill have enough time tomorrow to get that far. I fly out for 2 weeks, if I need this other head it may not be there when I get back.

Its typical the only reason I took the road trip in the first place was to buy all the doors and panels from a wreck 200km away because mine has that much rust I thought Id treat it to a facelift (and save me having to weld in new metal). So Ive now not bought those panels either because Im not sure if this will get running again.

Things happen in 3's I wonder whats next?

Glow plugs seem fine

I didnt pull any complete injectors out, I did undo all the lines feeding into the top one at a time and cranked the car. The fuel didnt flow out of any of them maybe a drop for each solid crank. Is this what should happen? I would have thought more fuel should be flowing then that.

The fuel comes out low volume but high pressure so it sounds right.

glow plugs working means that starting issues aren't related to that.

I'll assume there's no obstruction to the air intake

That only leaves compression

You can do a compression check if you want, but i think it's a waste of time, you need to take of the head for a proper look

oldmate wrote: You can do a compression check if you want, but i think it's a waste of time, you need to take of the head for a proper look

So without checking the compression before taking the head off, how will I know the block is ok besides looking for cracks on the pistons?

Is there a good tech article out there for changing a head? My workshop manual (Max Ellery) isnt the best and I dont like the toyota repair manual either.

The toyota manual is probably the better one from the few different brands i've seen. But I guess any of them do require a certain level of mechanical aptitude.

The trick with the head itself is to remove the bolts in a sequence. that will be explained in the manuals. Same goes for bolting it back on. Needs to be in sequence and to a specific torque (you'll need a torque wrench, or borrow one) Its the same with the valve rocker assembly. Everything else comes off straight forward. There isn't really much to take off and the job can be done by the average back yard mechanic in 1 to 2 hours.

Another tip is to take heaps of photos when dismantling so you can refer back to them if you're not sure.

You can post up some pictures of the pistons if you aren't sure for opinions. Cracks are fairly obvious though, as willl severe damage such as melting. You can check the bores visually, and by hand. they should be smooth to the touch. Normally a naturally aspriated diesel won't get that hot to cause bottom end damage, but the 2h doesn't have skirt coolers, so I couldn't be sure.

Damage to the head will be obious. Cracks between the valves, and around the pre combustion chambers. Also the precomps can disloge and fall out. If there aren't any visible cracks, and the precomps are still in there have the head professionally checked. Other wise it's one for the scrap bin.

Be sure to drink a few beers before hand, and during the operation to keep your buzz, and confidence up. Best way to learn is to have a crack at it. After all you can't really fuck it up any more than it already is

Took my time tearing the old girl apart today (no beers sadly).

Taking the headbolts off was a real pita, some needed me to tap the rachet with a hammer and others cracked with ease.

There is a lot of oil in the intake manifold is that normal?

The gasket looked fine and didnt have any blowouts so where did all the steam come from? I flipped the head over to look at the bottom and cylinder 2 has a major crack from the combustion to the valve, and number 5 is the same story but a much finer crack.

Piston walls were smooth but on 2 there was a 3mm chip about 4mm from the edge and number 5 looks like it has had a little heat on the edge both these are also in the up positions.

So is this enough damage to keep my car cranking but not kicking over?

Doesn't sound good. the block damage is an issue.

At this point you'd be better off looking for a second hand motor. Cost wise you're much better off. Going down the rebuild path is expensive anyway, but since you already need a new head and may have an un-machinable block it will be worse.

There may be internal cracks in the head between water galleys and the exhaust ports which would cause steam out the exhaust manifold and out a leaking gasket. If its the two piece manifold it's probably the gasket joining the two parts.

Although if you're keen, on the bright side this is a good oppitunity for an engine conversion!

There is that 88 2H still available, once I get the full gasket kit and that Im looking at about $500. I dont want to pull the block out the head was heavy and awkward enough on its own. Options being put the whole thing in and take a chance or just the head and hope my pistons are ok.

What are my straight fit motor options? I cant be bothered with making mounts and crossmember etc, besides the body is far from presentable I just want it going again.

As far as conversions go I have a 3.3l Pathfinder motor lying around and a 5l BMW V12. Neither Im too keen on putting in there

a 12ht is straight fit but costly motor to buy around $4000 for a decent one, that still might have existing probs. The 1h family will require different gearbox shaft + clutch and radiator input is in different spot so conversion costs probably over $2000 not including a the motor a 1hz is about $4000 or 1hd at around $6000+ rebuild the 2h or get a good second hand motor.

Well I went and bought a secondhand 2H.

The plan was to just put the head on and hope for the best but the 2 dodgy looking pistons have me worried. The guy i bought the spare from said if I only change the head and it still doesnt fire to use the pistons from the spare block with a new set of rings.

Im thinking with the head off already on both motors should I change the 2 or 6 pistons over while its already in pieces?

Well its 99% back together, I still need to join a couple of coolant hoses and the exhaust manifold.

Tried to start it and it will turn over but not fire. I made sure there was power to the glow plugs.

Any ideas of things to test/ eliminate? I dont want to throw in the towel just yet.

You did bleed the injector lines yes?

I pumped the system with the injector pump lines disconnected, then when they were on I pumped again. Reconnected the lines to the injectors and pumped again.

I have cracked the bleed ontop of the filter since trying to start it and it shoots fuel into the air so to me that means its primed pretty good...yes?

Is the edic motor actuating correctly? It should push all the way forward when turned off and pull all the way back when the ignition turns on (and settle somewhere in the middle while idling) . The only other thing I'd check (and I'm sure you have) is pump timing.

I dont have the EDIC rod connected ATM because it wasnt working before the overheating, I got another one with the new engine and installed it, it didnt seem to switch so I took the rod off and made sure its pushed to the firewall.

You give me far too much credit I didnt touch the pump except to disconnect the fuel lines so it didnt occur to me to look closer at it.

Any other ideas to try? I want to try and eliminate as much as possible before giving up.

made sure its pushed to the firewall.

is that the right way or the wrong way? Take the rod off and it the position it goes to is the right position. Forget if it's forward or back

Edic pushes forward to shut off the engine, so yeah he's right. Not sure what else mate. Will have a think about it over a couple.

Didnt set the valve clearances, I had a mate tell me not to bother with them. He thought the 2nd head I got had the rockers still on it but it was removed and I had to put it back on when I installed the head.

A fitter a work today told me to set them up right. Makes sense that this can stop it from starting. I dont have time till Sat to try this.

Was also told to test my glow plugs one by one, all Ive done so far is prove power is running through that metal strip that joins them, who knows one or more maybe stuffed.

Keep the ideas coming Ill add them to my Saturday to do list.

My manual is useless, which are the exhaust valves?

From the front of the engine does it go
ex in ex in ex in ex in .....
or
in ex in ex in ex in ex .....

cheers