Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Im looking to enlarge the sump size on my Rover 3.5 L v8.

(they have oiling issues !! - Im not solving the issue - just helping the engine !)

I am considering buying the 2.5 or 3 inch donut - and slicing it into 2 "D" shapes - and welding one to each side (left + right) of the flat part of the sump.
The "D" would lie flat - protruding out to each side. (I have HEAPS of room)

1. Can anyone see an issue doing this ?
2. Is there an easier way to enlarge the sump slightly ?
3. Can you recommend someone in Melb n/w to do the mod for me ?


Cheers.

Have done this previously on circuit racing cars with success. I just welded 4" exhaust pipe on though rather than using donuts, but you could also use large RHS with one of its sides cut off.

I didn't remove the side of the sump, just drill a few 10mm holes in it so it work like a baffle.

- David.

Baffles are better as flaps...

Ok, so I just wanted to say flaps...

But still, they work best when set up like trap doors...

Yes flaps are always better, not just in your sump.

But a) if you have the skills and/or time to fabricate up flaps your probably not considering welding exhaust pipe to the side of the sump for extra capacity; b) it is no longer a "easy" sump upgrade.

Flaps always make the situation more complicated, but sometimes it is worth the compromise.

- David.

By flaps do you mean a one way trap door - to stop oil surging into the "extra side compartments" on hard cornering (keep it in the bowl)
- but let oil out quickly if oil level drops away from the door (refilling the bowl) ??

Is that worth the effort ?

what are these 'oil issues' you talk of?

Big oil cooler setup would increase the oil capacity by a bit and would keep the oil at a nice temperature when your giving it a bootful.

Thats what I was going to suggest, fit an oil cooler. To add even more capacity, still get your donut, but fit it remotely into the cooler line with one inlet and one outlet fitting.

How is the oil cooler going to help me keep oil in the sump ?

Wouldnt I have to tap the block somewhere to fit that up (putting more stress on my oil system)

note - I already have a remote oil filter setup.

BrettInUte wrote:By flaps do you mean a one way trap door - to stop oil surging into the "extra side compartments" on hard cornering (keep it in the bowl)
- but let oil out quickly if oil level drops away from the door (refilling the bowl) ??

Is that worth the effort ?

Yeah, that is exactlly what it is for. You would have 4 separate winged chambers and flaps on them as described to try and keep oil around the pick-up for a little longer when cornering, braking or accelerating. But for the slow work that you would be doing in a 4WD it won't be as affective compared to on the circuit.

But we are now away from a easy sump capacity upgrade. So if you have oiling problems that need to be resolved then when we understand what they are a suitable solution could be identified.

I don't know about the whole large oil filter as a solution to oil starvation. Once the pickup is out of the oil in the sump there is going to be air in the system and though this might sort out very minor starvation, I don't see it resolving a situation that could cause bearing damage. Just a matter of time before that air makes the bearings. A properly designed sump would be more successful.

- David.

Once again, my love for small, fast cars comes out when least appropriate...

Flaps.

Dirty wrote:

BrettInUte wrote:By flaps do you mean a one way trap door - to stop oil surging into the "extra side compartments" on hard cornering (keep it in the bowl)
- but let oil out quickly if oil level drops away from the door (refilling the bowl) ??

Is that worth the effort ?

Yeah, that is exactlly what it is for. You would have 4 separate winged chambers and flaps on them as described to try and keep oil around the pick-up for a little longer when cornering, braking or accelerating. But for the slow work that you would be doing in a 4WD it won't be as affective compared to on the circuit.

But we are now away from a easy sump capacity upgrade. So if you have oiling problems that need to be resolved then when we understand what they are a suitable solution could be identified.

I don't know about the whole large oil filter as a solution to oil starvation. Once the pickup is out of the oil in the sump there is going to be air in the system and though this might sort out very minor starvation, I don't see it resolving a situation that could cause bearing damage. Just a matter of time before that air makes the bearings. A properly designed sump would be more successful.

- David.

Thanks David.


I appear to be having issues on long high speed (150kmph) runs (rough tracks though).
This is a 700kg 2wd buggy - not a 3T 4wd.

Have damaged the oil pump drive previously and now have a rattly botton end.
In just trying to help the issue - not solve the root cause.


Remote oil filter is fitted for clearance issues.


Cheers.

perhaps flaps would be the way to go then!

Have you considered making the sump smaller rather than larger? A tightly"cowled" sump around the oil pickup is going to be less susceptible to starvation/aeration of the oil (the issue you have now). You can put an oil reservoir on one of the lines to the external oil filter or even an additional oil cooler.

I was going to go the trapdoor route with mine, but couldnt be assed in the end. I may go back to it soon.

Check my build thread, about page 14 in the members section, I added a ring of sheet metal about 50mm high around the top of the sump, and that added a fair bit of capacity. 5L to 7L.

BrettInUte wrote:
I appear to be having issues on long high speed (150kmph) runs (rough tracks though).
This is a 700kg 2wd buggy - not a 3T 4wd.

Have damaged the oil pump drive previously and now have a rattly botton end.
In just trying to help the issue - not solve the root cause.

Ok, if you have zero coin and can weld, then you could weld some wings on the current sump, and make sure there is a horizontal baffle over the oil pickup. Also cut the well off the sump and extend it down and also extend the pickup.

But as your racing and you look like you need someone to do the fab. for you, I would not stuff around with building your own. Just buy an after market performance sump and a new set of bottom end bearings. There must be hundreds of options in the UK for these motors, and ebay could be your friend.

Maybe I have mis-understood, but I am assuming that you are doing short/long course off-road events. Why would you pay the entry fee, travel to the event and buy fluids and fuel to run a vehicle that has a stuffed bottom end? My first step would be to rebuild the motor, even if that means you keep the standard sump. Then once the motor is fixed get a second hand performance sump, or dry-sump the bastard.

- David.

Dirty wrote:

BrettInUte wrote:
I appear to be having issues on long high speed (150kmph) runs (rough tracks though).
This is a 700kg 2wd buggy - not a 3T 4wd.

Have damaged the oil pump drive previously and now have a rattly botton end.
In just trying to help the issue - not solve the root cause.

Ok, if you have zero coin and can weld, then you could weld some wings on the current sump, and make sure there is a horizontal baffle over the oil pickup. Also cut the well off the sump and extend it down and also extend the pickup.

But as your racing and you look like you need someone to do the fab. for you, I would not stuff around with building your own. Just buy an after market performance sump and a new set of bottom end bearings. There must be hundreds of options in the UK for these motors, and ebay could be your friend.

Maybe I have mis-understood, but I am assuming that you are doing short/long course off-road events. Why would you pay the entry fee, travel to the event and buy fluids and fuel to run a vehicle that has a stuffed bottom end? My first step would be to rebuild the motor, even if that means you keep the standard sump. Then once the motor is fixed get a second hand performance sump, or dry-sump the bastard.

- David.

Plus keep the sump standard for easy changeover in racing. Just add a cooler, slightly more capacity.

Dirty wrote:Ok, if you have zero coin

Yes - Zero coin !!

Dirty wrote:and can weld, then you could weld some wings on the current sump

Yes - I think thats my plan

Dirty wrote:and make sure there is a horizontal baffle over the oil pickup. Also cut the well off the sump and extend it down and also extend the pickup.
But as your racing and you look like you need someone to do the fab. for you, I would not stuff around with building your own. Just buy an after market performance sump and a new set of bottom end bearings. There must be hundreds of options in the UK for these motors, and ebay could be your friend.
Maybe I have mis-understood, but I am assuming that you are doing short/long course off-road events.

I need to maximise ground clearance - so deepening sump a heap is out....
New bearings going in currently.
Racing is informal - entry fee is usually beers !

Dirty wrote: Why would you pay the entry fee, travel to the event and buy fluids and fuel to run a vehicle that has a stuffed bottom end? My first step would be to rebuild the motor, even if that means you keep the standard sump.

Motor going back together - with new bearings currently.

Dirty wrote:Then once the motor is fixed get a second hand performance sump, or dry-sump the bastard.- David.

performance sumps for rovers seem thin on the ground.
Dry sump - not happening.

Brett,

Sounds like your on the right track then.

To make your life easy, I would get some RHS and make it out of that as opposed to the donut. RHS will be cheaper and will hold a lot more oil for the effort.

Drill holes in the walls of the existing sump before welding the RHS over it to try and reduce oil surge. If you have access to a basic heat source this could all be brazed up very easily and not require expensive welding equipment.

Also you can do a basic dry sump setup quite cheaply. Using the standard oil pump, plumb the oil pickup out the side of the sump to connect to an oil tank and then just get a single oil pump to scavenge from the bottom of the standard sump. Years ago before ebay we used a Corolla pump mounted to the front of a 2l Ford running of the front of the crank which worked. But have a mate that bought a 3 port dry-sump pump of eBay for a couple hundred dollars, so there are bargains out there if you look long enough. The biggest cost will be the pressure oil lines though, so on a budget I would work around what you can get cheaply.

- David.

If I had some spare coin (and a heap more sump clearance)

http://www.triumphroverspares.com.au/pa ... rent3id=23

The only reason you would spend over a grand on a sump on a rover engine would be if you where forced to used the engine because of some class rules.

For the price of most of the stuff on the page you should be able to convert to a Chev SB with a little hunting on eBay. Then you will also have no problems with cheap race parts.

- David.