Outer Limits 4x4 Board

i was at a 4x4 shop today talking to mate when a customer was looking at shocks, he asked the salesman helping him what the valving was, the salesman asks him
"what do you mean" the customer asks again "I want to know what the valving of these shocks are"

what is your understanding of the customers question, how would you have answered it and when buying shocks would you consider it a valid question?


the shock he was asking about are non rebuildable, and 9 way adjustable.


NICK

if they are 9 way adjustable this means they have 9 different valve settings.there is no particular valving.

valving refers to the holes inside the shock which let oil,gas or whatever through.

the bigger the holes the softer the shock,the smaller the holes the harder the shock

georgey wrote:if they are 9 way adjustable this means they have 9 different valve settings.there is no particular valving.

valving refers to the holes inside the shock which let oil,gas or whatever through.

the bigger the holes the softer the shock,the smaller the holes the harder the shock

ok, that is pretty much the answer i would expect, and similiar to the answer the salesman gave, the customer then ask's again about the valving and how it would compare to a fox shock? not really understanding the question the saleman said "im not to sure, we dont deal in fox products but my understanding is all valving works in the same or a similar way" customer "yes but i am asking about your product" and getting quite rude. I thought to myself that the salesman had answered the question well and continued to listen, after a short period i come to the conculsion the customer had no idea in the world what he was actually talking about or asking.

NICK

I probably would have gone down the compression and rebound route with my answer, providing i actually knew the product.

My understanding is that fancy valve design can allow the effective hole size to change with piston speed - the faster the piston tries to move, the less resistance it offers (or something like that) and can be different again in the opposite direction.

But how the salesman is supposed to compare "valving" in a 9 stage adjustable with valving in a Fox shock (?) I have NFI.

coxy321 wrote:I probably would have gone down the compression and rebound route with my answer.

this eposide has been annoying me since i saw and heard it. Compression and extentsion is a good example.

" i mounted the shocks on the back of my hilux like this / \ as close to the diff centre as i could get them to allow for maxium wheel travel, the truck now when on aside slope feels like it wants to fall over, it has never done this before, are my shocks stuffed ? why is it doing this?"

-Scott- wrote: But how the salesman is supposed to compare "valving" in a 9 stage adjustable with valving in a Fox shock (?) I have NFI.

kinda the point the salesman made, why compare something that is a 9 way adustable sealed unit to something close to 3 times the price (per unit)that can be revalved and rebuilt.
Another question, would the customer even known how the why the shocks should be valved and what is involved incoming to the specs the shock will be set to?

NICK wrote:

-Scott- wrote: But how the salesman is supposed to compare "valving" in a 9 stage adjustable with valving in a Fox shock (?) I have NFI.

kinda the point the salesman made, why compare something that is a 9 way adustable sealed unit to something close to 3 times the price (per unit)that can be revalved and rebuilt.
Another question, would the customer even known how the why the shocks should be valved and what is involved incoming to the specs the shock will be set to?

Unless the customer knew the "ins and outs" of the vehicle in question, and also knew the specs of particular brands and model variations within a brand and how they perform for a given vehicle - i would say that they'd have NFI. On the same note, in your scenario i'd suggest that the salesperson would probably only know the basics too given their response.

For a accurate answer, you'd really need to be asking a workshop that specialise in suspension, and have shock dyno's with data sheets etc., not just a 4x4 accessory store.

coxy321 wrote:

NICK wrote:

-Scott- wrote: But how the salesman is supposed to compare "valving" in a 9 stage adjustable with valving in a Fox shock (?) I have NFI.

kinda the point the salesman made, why compare something that is a 9 way adustable sealed unit to something close to 3 times the price (per unit)that can be revalved and rebuilt.
Another question, would the customer even known how the why the shocks should be valved and what is involved incoming to the specs the shock will be set to?

Unless the customer knew the "ins and outs" of the vehicle in question, and also knew the specs of particular brands and model variations within a brand and how they perform for a given vehicle - i would say that they'd have NFI. On the same note, in your scenario i'd suggest that the salesperson would probably only know the basics too given their response.

For a accurate answer, you'd really need to be asking a workshop that specialise in suspension, and have shock dyno's with data sheets etc., not just a 4x4 accessory store.

exactly, why in the world would you smash the salesman 4 times straight with the same question on a $200 dollar shock when there are so many more factors that need to be considered if a shock is to be valved correctly. How would you expect a high performance shock to be setup and work properly without knowing the weight of the vehicle, the ride height, the use, the shock mount position and angle along with a ton of other things and i think it is stuiped to expect this type of performance from an off the shelf multi purpose shock.

Your right in saying the salesmans knowledge was limited, but in his defence he didnt want to sound stuiped or give misleading information. I personally know the salemans and he is an honest person and wouldnt bull shit like most. However, he could have said "you have a heavy car so the shock is valved to work like this ........ on setting 9 and this .......... on setting 5 etc"

NICK

Valving is a complicated subjet and is somewhat similar to the how long is a piece of string question.......
Back when I was racing we had literally dozens of shocks with valving combo's for each car for each spring , driver and track and even time of the year variation.

[stoopid quick answer] generally most 'adjustable' shocks refer more to 'metering' rather than valving. 'Valving' term is generally used to describe the flow of oil (differential) across the piston shim stack. But there are some brands that have defflective valving in the heads of the chambers. The 'adjustables' usually refer to a metering valve (eg tapered needle/seat) which can restrict/meter flow to different chambers (eg reservior or return oil).

[and this is the basic answer] Then the type/position/setup of valving is a whole story in itself...... pistons design also plays a big role as well..... linear / digressive.....

good luck.... just tell them you get free stickers , thats all the tech needed

In the US some shocks are sold with valving numbers (180/80 etc etc). Basically it's a point on the shocks speed/force curve measured on a dyno, higher number on rebound, lower on compression.
I'd expect the customer was expecting an answer including those numbers, but they actually give very little information on how the shock will perform.

Yeah pretty much a 9way adjustable shock is going to in most cases a cheap twin tube shock with set valving across a range of lenghts and mounting arangments that allows the shock to bypass oil by way of an adjustable needle and seat thus allowing easier and cheaper manafacturing cost for a large range of shocks to loosley fit and function and a large number of vehicles and sell at a higher cost by selling the adjustability as a feature. The $200 shocks are effectivly a cheap solution and the potential customer a moron. That said the salesman probably should understand his product a little better