Powerstroke 7.3 or 6.5 Chev ?

[Black Bull]

Looking at re-powering my 80, as it's the 3F-E it's got an oddball auto in it so I'll be looking at replacing the transmission as well.

the two options I'm considering at the moment are the Ford 7.3 TD and a 6.5 Chev.(probably supercharged)
What are your opinions on them, who's fitted them and what trans did you use ?

Ideally, I'd love a Duromax and a 6 speed Allison.....best I keep dreaming about that :(

[turbo gu]

VE commodore 6litre.

Unless your putting in a duramax i wouldn't bother with an american diesel.

2nd choice would be 100series turbo diesel.

Has been done quite a few times with great results

[Black Bull]

Thought about an LS engine, even got one here, but the original reason I bought the 80 was to make a tow rig out of it.

[ISUZUROVER]

What about an ISUZU 6HE1? Cheap to buy, easy and cheap to get parts for, and will outlast and outperform any other option.

7.3 Powerstroke
205 kW @ 2,800 rpm
710 N·m @ 1,600 rpm

6.5 Turbo
160 kW @ 3,200 rpm
597 N·m @ 1,800 rpm

6HE1-T (7.1L)
170kW @ 2,800
670 N.m @ 1,700

Power and torque are slightly lower than the 7.3 in the stock (conservatively tuned) form. However the engine will do 1 million km between rebuilds, and can be tweaked easily.

[V.W.Dave]

The Chev is only as good as the trans you put behind it. Its a well known fact that the older chevs and the new duramax struggled till Alison teamed up with chev.
The Stroker on the other hand is a great engine all around the only common problem I ever heard about back in the states was they would kill factory turbo if they ran higher/highway revs all the time.

I would go for the Stroker my self you dont need to do anything to it.

[Black Bull]

What about an ISUZU 6HE1? Cheap to buy, easy and cheap to get parts for, and will outlast and outperform any other option.

interesting, can't find much info on it, but it looks like a big sucker

[slowhilux]

1HDFTE and A750 5 sp auto from 100 series, farkin great tow motor for a "small" 4.2 diseasel.

[Gwagensteve]

The Chev is only as good as the trans you put behind it. Its a well known fact that the older chevs and the new duramax struggled till Alison teamed up with chev.

A) What does this mean? I wasn't aware the 4L80E was a problem transmission? I think most people rate it pretty highly. I'm pretty sure the 6.5's are rubbish despite rather than because of the gearbox.

My Dad ran a 6.5 N/A H1 Hummer for a few years - the auto was dynamite.

B) Are you sure you could buy a Duramax with a non-allison automatic behind it? I was pretty sure Duramax/Allison was the only available auto combination.
Steve.

[ISUZUROVER]

What about an ISUZU 6HE1? Cheap to buy, easy and cheap to get parts for, and will outlast and outperform any other option.

interesting, can't find much info on it, but it looks like a big sucker

Heavy, but not that big.

Here are some pics of a 4HE1 crate motor, shown with a 40 cm ruler for scale. The 6HE1 is just 1/3 longer.






And a 6HE1-T for sale at a truck wrecker

The intercooler piping could use a tidy up!

[V.W.Dave]

The Chev is only as good as the trans you put behind it. Its a well known fact that the older chevs and the new duramax struggled till Alison teamed up with chev.

A) What does this mean? I wasn't aware the 4L80E was a problem transmission? I think most people rate it pretty highly. I'm pretty sure the 6.5's are rubbish despite rather than because of the gearbox.

My Dad ran a 6.5 N/A H1 Hummer for a few years - the auto was dynamite.

B) Are you sure you could buy a Duramax with a non-allison automatic behind it? I was pretty sure Duramax/Allison was the only available auto combination.
Steve.

Look at sales in the states of the 1500 to 3500 pick up trucks for the 30 years before chevy put the duramax/Alison you will see 80 if not more percent of all Deisal sold were either Cummings (dodge) or the power stroke (ford) Chevy won the petrol battle with there vortex, older 350s and big blocks hands down.

The dodge off the show room floor was a better truck but the front ends would fall apart because how heavy the engine was and the interiors were absolute dog $#!+. The engines and trans in them would far outlast the truck around them. When I worked at Sears auto center over there I am not kidding we would do upper and lower Ball joints more often then brakes tires or major services on those things.

The Ford was never as flash nor did it ever have as many bells or whistles but the entire truck would last 300000+ miles (excluding the odd turbo)

The Chevy diesels never lasted without a lot of help you never see them on the road over there. The Duramax was a copy of some other engine used in the agricultural world with different injectors but I cant remember what it was. When they made the "duramax" it was going to be going into a market were Dodge finally after a 5 year hold out started to sell a 4 door pickup again and Ford just unveiled there new HD line and style. Chevy did the failsafe and pulled out all stops to ensure they could put a truck on the market that could hold its own against the others. So they held out for the Alison contract. Dodge was looking at getting Alison because they were going to loose Cummins and start using Merc engines.

I started my trade by going to Texas State Technical Collage (the biggest redneck place doing the biggest redneck trade) to become a Diesel Mechanic. I ended up being a Diesel and heavy line specialist for Volkswagen for 12 or so years. I never directly worked for ford, chevy or dodge but i worked in a few joint dealerships with all of them. Even the redneck Chev mechanics drove Ford or Dodge before the Duramax/Alison came out.

As I said I never really worked on them but I know what I saw and I know what all my mates and the people that had to live off there truck drove. Chev Diesel before that motor was not on that list.

My partner over there did the rodeo circuit (she was a barrel racer) where there would be anywhere from 20 to 200 trucks with horse trailers. The people on the circuit do over 50000miles a year. Out there you would never see any old Chevs or GMC trucks unless they were 350s or 454s. Well over half were ford F250s or F350s with power strokes.

[Bush65]

The Chev is only as good as the trans you put behind it. Its a well known fact that the older chevs and the new duramax struggled till Alison teamed up with chev.

A) What does this mean? I wasn't aware the 4L80E was a problem transmission? I think most people rate it pretty highly. I'm pretty sure the 6.5's are rubbish despite rather than because of the gearbox.

My Dad ran a 6.5 N/A H1 Hummer for a few years - the auto was dynamite.

B) Are you sure you could buy a Duramax with a non-allison automatic behind it? I was pretty sure Duramax/Allison was the only available auto combination.
Steve.

... The Duramax was a copy of some other engine used in the agricultural world with different injectors but I cant remember what it was. ...

I recall taking an interest in what was being said about the Duramax when it was first released. My understanding is that when GM wanted an engine to better the Cummins used in Dodges, they owned part of Isuzu (at that time Isuzu was the largest manufacture of small diesel engines in the world), so they had Isuzu engineers work with GM engineers to design the Duramax engine. They also had Alison develop a new, larger auto transmission to suit the Duramax.

So I'm thinking you are mistaken when saying/implying that Duramax struggled before Alison teamed up (because Alison had teamed up before Duramax was released), and that Duramax was a copy of some other engine used in the agricultural world with different injectors (I believe it was designed from the ground up, and for manufacture in a new engine plant).

[sierrajim]

The Chev is only as good as the trans you put behind it. Its a well known fact that the older chevs and the new duramax struggled till Alison teamed up with chev.

A) What does this mean? I wasn't aware the 4L80E was a problem transmission? I think most people rate it pretty highly. I'm pretty sure the 6.5's are rubbish despite rather than because of the gearbox.

My Dad ran a 6.5 N/A H1 Hummer for a few years - the auto was dynamite.

B) Are you sure you could buy a Duramax with a non-allison automatic behind it? I was pretty sure Duramax/Allison was the only available auto combination.
Steve.

... The Duramax was a copy of some other engine used in the agricultural world with different injectors but I cant remember what it was. ...

I recall taking an interest in what was being said about the Duramax when it was first released. My understanding is that when GM wanted an engine to better the Cummins used in Dodges, they owned part of Isuzu (at that time Isuzu was the largest manufacture of small diesel engines in the world), so they had Isuzu engineers work with GM engineers to design the Duramax engine. They also had Alison develop a new, larger auto transmission to suit the Duramax.

So I'm thinking you are mistaken when saying/implying that Duramax struggled before Alison teamed up (because Alison had teamed up before Duramax was released), and that Duramax was a copy of some other engine used in the agricultural world with different injectors (I believe it was designed from the ground up, and for manufacture in a new engine plant).

To set this straight, I do have a little expirence with Chev stuff.

The 6.5TD prior to being electronically injected wasn't such a bad thing for its time. Then they electronically controlled it, here is where the problems started with the fuel control module failing.

The 1500 trucks were fitted with a 4L60 which was fine until people ignored the owners manual/sticker on the door that says DO NOT TOW or HAUL IN OVERDRIVE. Loading up overdrive the 4L60 doesn't last too long.

The 2500/3500 trucks were fitted with the 4L80 that had no great issues at all. In fact there have been many out here treated in ways that should have resulted in failure but they keep going.

The 6.5 was dropped on 2000 when the Duramax was released as a NEWLY designed engine. A team up of both GM and Isuzu. Stock power of 300hp/520lb torque running through the 5 speed Allison or 6 speed ZF manual. This is by far one of the best moves GM ever made.

A couple of minor injector problems were tidied up that occurred in 2001-2002 1/2 trucks. The engine was updated in 2003, again slightly in 2005 with the variable vane turbo. In 2006 the transmission was updated to the 6 speed with paddle shift and a few extra hp thrown in for good easure.

2007 saw the introduction of the new emissions system fitted to the LMM, 2011 model now has add blue (urea) and 390+hp and 750+lb/ft.

The Duramax has not been fitted into a truck (Silverado/Sierra) for retail consumption. I do believe that the Vans (G series) have the 4L80 behind a detuned Duramax that runs around 270hp.

[V.W.Dave]

Have a read. In the first few lines it tells how the older chev engines were crap.

http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2010/08/th ... s-old.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[sierrajim]

Have a read. In the first few lines it tells how the older chev engines were crap.

http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2010/08/th ... s-old.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Dave,

That doesn't say squat. Just says they were non competitive.

The Navstar for its time was a great engine, the Cummins was better. The Duramax since then has had the reliability, track record and reputation.

As stated the 6.2 and 6.5 (pre 1994) were relaible. Just far from being powerful. The later 6.5 is a waste of time.

[ISUZUROVER]

John (Bush65) knows more about the Chev diesels than most. DO a search for his posts. e.g.:

The chevy 6.2 and 6.5 diesel are notorious for the head cracking into water passages.

The long established fix is to ream out the water passage and install a sleeve that seals the crack from the water passage. The bore of the sleeve still allows water flow. The crack remains in the head but doesn't create a problem once it sealed off from the water passage.

There is a lot of information about this on USA chev diesel sites.

They use valve guides to sleeve the water passage, but something else could be made to do the same job if the particular valve guides are difficult to find locally.

They have a problem with cooling toward the rear of the heads. I can't remember if this is what causes the above mentioned cracks, or if it leads to some other issue. It is believed that steam vapour forms because of poor water flow and resulting vapour pockets prevent proper cooling.

GM fixed this in the late engines by dramatically uprating the water flow rate. The high output water pump is driven by a serpentine belt and rotates in the opposite direction so can't be easily retrofitted to earlier engines. They also have a larger thermostat housing with 2 thermostats.

For a long time I was keen to put a 6.5 litre Chevy diesel in my bushie (re Bush65 name) and found out as much as I could about them. I deleted most of the info recently during a clean-up.

As far as diesels go they are light duty and for their displacement they do not produce a lot of power or torque.

Some claim they are based on the petrol v8 but that is BS. Designed from scratch by Detroit Diesel for GM. They are very similar in size, but heavier than BB Chevy and only share minor external bolt on components.

They have a bad reputation for being unreliable, but a lot of that is based on the inferior and unrelated 5.7 litre motor, which the 6.2l replaced.

6.2l blocks before 1992 develop cracks in the webs (from the main bearing bolts). The block was beefed up in 1992 to fix that and to suit 6.5l - block casting no 10149599. 1993 was last year for 6.2l. Oil spray to cool pistons was introduced in 1966 and the holes that are machined in the main webs lead to cracking in the webs.

The heads tend to crack between valve seats at rear cylinders. This is repaired by fitting a sleeve in the water passage - the crack remains but the leak is sealed. The problem was not solved until later 6.5l turbos with the high volume water pump - not practical to retrofit to earlier motors. The generally accepted explanation is that steam develops in the water passages of the head affecting cooling (the flow from the larger pump is able to get rid of the steam).

The unusual firing order and being diesel, creates impulses that cause problems with the harmonic balancer. Flogged keyways in the crank are not unusual. The rubber in the balancer deteriorates, which quickly lead to a broken crankshaft.

There are problems with glow plugs. Carbon build-up makes them hard to remove and they can easily break inside the head (tricky to remove).

The life of alternator belts is notorious.

The mechanical DB2 injector pumps have a poor reputation for longevity. The DB4 pumps in later 6.5 turbos have some ceramic internal parts to improve the life with low Sulphur diesel, but these have computer controls which introduced new problems. Of the non-computer controlled pumps the last of these (DB2-911) is best for performance - higher capacity and used with high pop pressure injectors.

The starter motor life can be short if the gear is not aligned accurately and the support bracket at the front of the starter is not fitted.

Turbo was never a factory option for 6.2l and I can't recall which year the turbo came out on 6.5l. The compression ratio is high, even for a diesel (22:1 from memory, to make starting easier in North American winters), so high turbo boost pressures can't be used.

It is essential to watch the exhaust gas temperature if you increase the fuel.

As far as engine conversions go, engine mounts for a petrol chevy v8 also suit the diesel. The bolt pattern for the gearbox is also the same. As most diesels were fitted with auto's so you need an adaptor for Chevy flywheel (Marks have these) to fit a manual box.

If you want a strong and reliable diesel, and good parts availability have a good look at Isuzu truck motors. These trucks are everywhere in Australia. Some sources are National Truck Spares at Arncliffe (02) 9599 2700 or search for Isuzu at http://www.truckhub.com.au" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Bush65 -As far as diesels go they are light duty and for their displacement they do not produce a lot of power or torque.
?? Considering that a 6.2 is double the torque of a 2H cruiser engine and not quite double the power, How do you get low power/torque?
The unusual firing order and being diesel, creates impulses that cause problems with the harmonic balancer. Flogged keyways in the crank are not unusual. The rubber in the balancer deteriorates, which quickly lead to a broken crankshaft.
?? Brunswick make their own twin pulleys, and no probs with mine

The life of alternator belts is notorious.
No probs at all.
As far as engine conversions go, engine mounts for a petrol chevy v8 also suit the diesel. The bolt pattern for the gearbox is also the same. As most diesels were fitted with auto's so you need an adaptor for Chevy flywheel (Marks have these) to fit a manual box.
yes

I was not trying to make a point that torque from a 6.2l Chevy was not greater than a 3.9l Toyota - they do. The fact is that they don't make as much power or torque as other similar size diesels eg. Cummins.

Some torque figures that I have in front of me are:
Toyota 2H 3.9l 229 Nm @ 2000 rpm - NA
Nissan TD42 4.2l 264 Nm @ 2000 rpm - NA
Chev 6.2l 386 Nm @ 2000 rpm - NA
Chev 6.5l 394 Nm @ 1700 rpm - NA
Chev 6.5l 515 Nm @ 1700 rpm - turbo
Isuzu 4HE1 4.8l 451 Nm @ 2000 rpm - turbo

Edit- Cummins ISB145/175 4 cyl 3.9l 570 Nm @ 1500 rpm - turbo
Cummins ISB260 6 cyl 5.9l 895 Nm @ 1500 rpm - turbo

The rubber in the harmonic balancer does fail and this leads to broken crankshafts. The advice that I have seen is: If the rubber starts to protrude from the balancer or appears to have deteriorated then it should be replaced.

3.9litre?? The only Cruiser engine this size is the F155 petrol that was in the 70-71 40series. The 2H is a 4litre.

Fair enough, the Izuzu produces more power. Didnt actually know that.Curious tho, what sort of weight is it? The 6.2 is 20kg lighter than the 2h. That combined with the power/torque increase IMHO is worth it.

With the harmonic balancer, I did say that Brunswick make their own and it hasnt self destructed in the last 2 years. The standard Chev one probably does vibrate apart, but I havent got one!

Stepho I was not having a go at you or your rig - just passing on info that I found while researching Chev diesels for myself. Some points to be aware of for someone that was likely to lay out $$$ for one.

BTW the best source of info that I found was http://thedieselpage.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; If you search the members forum there you will find substantial evidence supporting my earlier comments - and this is from rusted on Chev diesel fanatics.

Yes 2H is 3.98l

Isuzu (owned by GM) designed the Duramax 6.6 litre that repaced the 6.5l in GM and Chev trucks (about year 2000). The Duramax was a long overdue replacement because the old 6.5l had been left way behind the Cummins 5.9l used in Dodge Rams and the Ford Powerstrokes.

I don't know weight of Isuzu 4HE1, but 4BD1-T is 327kg (dry) and I guess the 4HE1 is a little more.

Sorry I inferred you meant a pulley on the stock harmonic balancer.

I have a 6.2l/6.5l troubleshooting guide and removal & replacement guide (both about 50 pages) if you want them (no use to me now). E-mail or pm a mailing address if your interested.

By the way there are so-called light duty and heavy duty versions of both the 6.2l and 6.5l - relates to power due to light duty meeting (at the time)pollution levels in some states.

[Harb]

I,ve had both and the 6.5 cannot be compared with the 7.3 in any way other than the fuel they run on......... I will put my 7.3 up against any 6.5 in the country.....

not that the chev is a bad engine , but they are in a different class IMHO

[Gwagensteve]

Look at sales in the states of the 1500 to 3500 pick up trucks for the 30 years before chevy put the duramax/Alison you will see 80 if not more percent of all Deisal sold were either Cummings (dodge) or the power stroke (ford) Chevy won the petrol battle with there vortex, older 350s and big blocks hands down.

The dodge off the show room floor was a better truck but the front ends would fall apart because how heavy the engine was and the interiors were absolute dog $#!+. The engines and trans in them would far outlast the truck around them. When I worked at Sears auto center over there I am not kidding we would do upper and lower Ball joints more often then brakes tires or major services on those things.

The Ford was never as flash nor did it ever have as many bells or whistles but the entire truck would last 300000+ miles (excluding the odd turbo)

The Chevy diesels never lasted without a lot of help you never see them on the road over there. The Duramax was a copy of some other engine used in the agricultural world with different injectors but I cant remember what it was. When they made the "duramax" it was going to be going into a market were Dodge finally after a 5 year hold out started to sell a 4 door pickup again and Ford just unveiled there new HD line and style. Chevy did the failsafe and pulled out all stops to ensure they could put a truck on the market that could hold its own against the others. So they held out for the Alison contract. Dodge was looking at getting Alison because they were going to loose Cummins and start using Merc engines.

I started my trade by going to Texas State Technical Collage (the biggest redneck place doing the biggest redneck trade) to become a Diesel Mechanic. I ended up being a Diesel and heavy line specialist for Volkswagen for 12 or so years. I never directly worked for ford, chevy or dodge but i worked in a few joint dealerships with all of them. Even the redneck Chev mechanics drove Ford or Dodge before the Duramax/Alison came out.

As I said I never really worked on them but I know what I saw and I know what all my mates and the people that had to live off there truck drove. Chev Diesel before that motor was not on that list.

My partner over there did the rodeo circuit (she was a barrel racer) where there would be anywhere from 20 to 200 trucks with horse trailers. The people on the circuit do over 50000miles a year. Out there you would never see any old Chevs or GMC trucks unless they were 350s or 454s. Well over half were ford F250s or F350s with power strokes.

This doesn't answer my question. Why is

The Chev is only as good as the trans you put behind it. Its a well known fact that the older chevs and the new duramax struggled till Alison teamed up with chev.

What's wrong with the 4L80E and why is it the weak link in the Chev diesel driveline, and as far as I (and sierrajim) are aware, the Duramax was never sold without an allison automatic behind it so what is your point?

Steve.

[sierrajim]

I,ve had both and the 6.5 cannot be compared with the 7.3 in any way other than the fuel they run on......... I will put my 7.3 up against any 6.5 in the country.....

not that the chev is a bad engine , but they are in a different class IMHO

Agree 100%, the 7.3 Powerstroke was 10 times the engine of the 6.5ltr.

Saying the 6.5 isn't a bad engine - I guess some poeple say that the 3.0ltr Patrol diesel isn't a bad engine as well

[rockcrawler31]

I've read some people who swear by their 6.2/6.5 chev diesel, but i've hear FAR MORE who absolutely hated theirs.

I'd look at Cummins 4BTA or 6BTA, or powerstroke, The duramax would be great but pricey (I'm looking at a repower for my 6ton chev hotrod at the moment.) I guess you'll be limíted by what will physically fit in an 80 series engine bay.

Detroit bird frightener would be horny as hell but i doubt you would have the dollars to pay for the fuel on it or the hearing aids you'd need after one long trip.