Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Not sure if this is the correct area, so if it needs to be moved so be it.....

I have just scored a welder (200amp inverter) it has a 15 amp plug....

I only have 10amp plugs at my house. I am getting a sparkie to put in a 15amp plug next week, but am keen to use the welder in the meantime.

Not overly keen on filing down the earth on the plug to fit into a 10a socket......is there anything else i can do to use the welder.....I have an older 15a extension lead that i could sacrafice for the cause and file the earth on it and then plug into a RCD power board that has a circuit breaker switch for each line being plugged in??

Thoughts......

just do the extension cord i did it for my compressor and welder..
as im not allowed to change the gpo's in this place landlord

sweet as....

will do.

If you see a house burning down in point cook tonight.....its mine.....

easiest way i reckon is short extension lead ( to minimise voltage drop etc) and with the 15amp female to take you compressor/welder, and put a 10 amp plug on the other end.

problem solvered

love ke70 wrote:easiest way i reckon is short extension lead ( to minimise voltage drop etc) and with the 15amp female to take you compressor/welder, and put a 10 amp plug on the other end.

problem solvered

Easiest way is to grind the earth pin down and just stick it into a 10 Amp GPO or swap the plug with a 10 Amp one. The only difference between the 10 and 15 Amp plugs is the earth pin which carries zero current during normal operation anyway. If there was an earth fault in your welder your earth leakage (safety switches) will trip straight away before the earth pin needs to carry any meaningful amount of current. As long as the wiring to the 10Amp GPO is suitable, which it should be as they do install them with a fair amount of headroom, you'll be alright.

Some fairly dodgy advice being given in this thread.
15 amp outlets are generally for dedicated equipment and are usually on their own final subcircuit. Whereas 10A outlets are for more general purpose appliances.
Without knowing your exact circumstances I certainly wouldn't be advocating running it off a general power circuit.

Just wait a week for your sparky to install a new outlet.

krusty182 wrote:15 amp outlets are generally for dedicated equipment and are usually on their own final subcircuit. Whereas 10A outlets are for more general purpose appliances.

Most people sheds are wired on a separate circuit to the rest of the house. He might have a couple flouro lights running of the same circuit while he's welding, big deal. It's not as if he'll be using it in his lounge room on the same GPO that the telly is plugged into. Just don't have too many other things running off the circuit you're using at the time and you won't have an issue.

the worst that could happen is he'll overload the circuit and trip the c/b.

6.5 rangie wrote:the worst that could happen is he'll overload the circuit and trip the c/b.

x2. And you won't find many GPO circuits rated at less than 20Amps.

drr wrote:Easiest way is to grind the earth pin down and just stick it into a 10 Amp GPO or swap the plug with a 10 Amp one. The only difference between the 10 and 15 Amp plugs is the earth pin which carries zero current during normal operation anyway. If there was an earth fault in your welder your earth leakage (safety switches) will trip straight away before the earth pin needs to carry any meaningful amount of current. As long as the wiring to the 10Amp GPO is suitable, which it should be as they do install them with a fair amount of headroom, you'll be alright.

The fact that you seem to think that the reason that the earth pin on a 15A is bigger is for current carrying purposes in a fault condition shows you really have absolutely no idea.

The pin is bigger for one reason and one reason only and that's to stop you plugging a higher rated device into a lower rated and designed circuit.

If you or anyone else thinks the worst that can happen is the C/B will trip out, you really have no clue. If anything apart from nothing else happening at all, it's the absolute best outcome you can hope for.

And before you say it doesn't happen, i have had to repair the wiring in a small shed after a fire which housed a 15A Air Compressor. The cause, a 15A Plug with a filed down earth pin stuck in a 10A GPO. The starting point of the fire was the GPO, because believe it or not, a 10A GPO is rated at 10A, not 15A.

r0ck_m0nkey wrote:If you or anyone else thinks the worst that can happen is the C/B will trip out, you really have no clue. If anything apart from nothing else happening at all, it's the absolute best outcome you can hope for.

And before you say it doesn't happen, i have had to repair the wiring in a small shed after a fire which housed a 15A Air Compressor. The cause, a 15A Plug with a filed down earth pin stuck in a 10A GPO. The starting point of the fire was the GPO, because believe it or not, a 10A GPO is rated at 10A, not 15A.

The CB shouldn't be able to supply enough current to the circuit to cause a fire if the wiring and GPO is in good condition. That's what it's there for. Each GPO is rated at 10Amp per outlet, 20 Amp total. If you only have one side plugged in the only parts which are working beyond their 10A rating is the socket contacts (same as 15A GPO) and the switch contact which is rated to switch 10A on load. You won't be switching the welder on and off at the wall at full load so it should be fine.
He did say he only wanted to give it a run to test it out, I doubt he will be pulling 15Amps from the outlet for long periods of time like your friend with the compressor.

drr wrote:If you only have one side plugged in the only parts which are working beyond their 10A rating is the socket contacts (same as 15A GPO)

Some 10A GPO's have the same internals as their equivelant 15A GPO's, but not all of them do.

drr wrote:and the switch contact which is rated to switch 10A on load. You won't be switching the welder on and off at the wall at full load so it should be fine. I doubt he will be pulling 15Amps from the outlet for long periods of time like your friend with the compressor.

"should be fine" and "i doubt" is just not good enough.

If we go off all your theories, then the manufacturers should stop wasting their time by fiting a 15A plug, it's clearly a waste of time.

I have a 15A welder, and when I built my shed had a 15A circuit installed.

However prior to that I ran the welder from 10A circuits at a few different houses with no issues. The worst that ever happened was I blew a 10A fuse once (old house). I didn't ever file the earth down, just found a short extension lead which was soft enough to squeeze the 15A earth pin into.

I spoke to plenty of sparkys who said it was no issue, just weld for short runs and don't have other things running at the same time. Some of them also ran 15A gear on 10A circuits themselves.

The socket on the short extension lead did get hot and start to melt slightly though over the years

All I have got to say is ..... IDIOTS !!
The only person with any commonsense is rock monkey.
This is a perfect example of "It will never happen to ME", if you haven't got enough patience to wait a week until a REAL sparky can come fit-off a 15amp designated circuit well that is just stupid. Too many factors that you may not be aware of can contribute to a fire, simple things like old wiring or GPO & at what point the GPO you are using is in the circuit
And people wonder why accidents happen



brooksy

Hey?! My post was the first to say don't do it and I got here before rock_monkey.

As for the guy who says that most sheds are on their own circuit, you don't know that's the case here, the OP never said anything about welding in a shed. He might be welding in a carport or under a pergola with an outlet supplied from one of the houses power circuits. Really for all we know he could live in an old house with semi-enclosed rewireable fuses that may have already been "beefed up" by some other cowboy doing the same thing.

I have also seen the melted results of running 15A welders on 10A outlets for extended periods, and some of those outlets were right at the board.

Bottom line: if you don't know the consequences, don't stuff with it. Fires happen this way.

Sorry Krusty, you no dumb dumb either !!
Bang on the money mate.


brooksy

hahah these threads always go the same way

Some of you guys obviously haven't seen a melted 10A gpo from running a 15A appliance. Safety switches and circuit breakers dont usually trip off from it as they're there to protect from shorts and overloads but turn the heat right up on a 15A welder and after a while of welding that 10A gpo will be hot or melting.
Also 15A GPO's, cabling, and leads have a larger sq mm conductor and contacts and have a 20A CB. Most 10A circuits will handle a 15A appliance because they are 16A CB's but the GPO's are not rated for 15A

I would think you could forget about your insurance if your house goes up in smoke. Any forensics after would show a 15 amp appliance plugged in where only 10 amps should have been, as you probably would forget to unplug your appliance and/or build up the metal on the earth pin.

Simple:

1. The 15 amp plug doesn't fit.
2. It doesn't fit for a reason.
3. The reason is to potentially save your house or your life.

Pretty basic really.

sudso wrote:Some of you guys obviously haven't seen a melted 10A gpo from running a 15A appliance. Safety switches and circuit breakers dont usually trip off from it as they're there to protect from shorts and overloads but turn the heat right up on a 15A welder and after a while of welding that 10A gpo will be hot or melting.
Also 15A GPO's, cabling, and leads have a larger sq mm conductor and contacts and have a 20A CB. Most 10A circuits will handle a 15A appliance because they are 16A CB's but the GPO's are not rated for 15A

not rated at, but have you ever pulled a s2000 10A and 15A single gpo apart? you'll find the internals identical (except for the earth)(not sure on other brands but i only use clipsal), from my experience the plug top generally burns out before the gpo, and you may find that the plug top has been changed a few time before and eventually the gpo has a melt down. For the sake of the argument (which it seems to be now) running a mig for a week more than likely won't cause any damage as its off and on all the time, unlike a compressor or hot water (and i fixed a 3.6kw hotty the other day that had a 10 plugtop on it and plugged into a 10A gpo, all was melted) but i wouldn't recommend it as i'm not sure on the condition of your electrical installation (and for the fact that we have rules and regs for stuff like this for a reason). But saying that, my father filed down the earth pin on his 140A arc some 30 years ago and its still going fine.
The bit about the earth pin is bigger for the earth fault reason, well thats a first, its basically a 'key' to stop you putting it in the wrong gpo, it'll fit a 15A and 20A but nothing smaller. 'IF' it was for earth fault reasons, wouldn't the other pins be the same size?
Basically it all comes down to the condition of the wiring and socket outlets whether it'll be handle it, BUT in the world of electrical it IS illegal, as electricians we can't do this or say go for it 'she'll be right'. But not being fixed wiring you can do whatever you want though.
Just wait a week.

p.s. i forgot mister winky guy on my first post, re edited now

I have run my 15amp inverter welder on about 5billion(300+) different 10amp sockets and have not had a problem yet. That said, it is generally new construction site wiring which is usually a 20cm piece of wire from the circuit breaker to the GPO, and then I plug my 15amp(wire)10amp(plugs) lead into that.

When I use my welder at home, on a 20year old GPO, in the garage at the opposite end of the house to the fuse box, I just never turn it up over 100amps. I also know what other GPO's are on the circuit in my garage, and I make sure nothing else is running on that circuit, or the CB will trip, and I do the walk of shame.

Having said that, I think my 9" grinder draws just as much current as my welder, as when I really load my 9" up, it will throw the 10A CB in my 4-way RCD Box anyway.


In other news. Can any sparkies confirm or deny, that a 4-way RCD Box, fitted with a 10A circuit breaker, and 10A plug, but 15A outlet(s) is legal?

I remember seeing something like this marketed to caravan owners as the only legal way for them to plug thier van into a 10A GPO???

The downfall is ofcourse if you want to weld over 100amps it will just keep tripping the CB.

6.5 rangie wrote: The bit about the earth pin is bigger for the earth fault reason, well thats a first, its basically a 'key' to stop you putting it in the wrong gpo, it'll fit a 15A and 20A but nothing smaller. 'IF' it was for earth fault reasons, wouldn't the other pins be the same size?
Basically it all comes down to the condition of the wiring and socket outlets whether it'll be handle it, BUT in the world of electrical it IS illegal, as electricians we can't do this or say go for it 'she'll be right'. But not being fixed wiring you can do whatever you want though.
Just wait a week.

p.s. i forgot mister winky guy on my first post, re edited now

A mate of mine is a sparky and I'll get him to explain it to me why in detail. For safety and legal reasons he would never advocate or suggest filing the earth pin down or swapping plugs to a 10A for good reason but a few here are doing that.
I was doing a job for a farmer a few weeks ago in his workshop using his 15A 240V mig welder and after a while of welding something went BANG and all the lights and power went out in the shed.
I should have checked first but I found that the 5mt extension cord to the welders power cord had a 15A socket at the welder end but a 10A plug at the GPO end into a 10A GPO. Just near the GPO the ext cord was wrapped over one of the metal stays on the sheds framework and had melted through til the bare cable touched the metal. It tripped the CB, RCD, and safety switch at his house as well and the plug and GPO I could hardly touch it was so hot. Depending which wire touched the framework first the whole shed could have been live for who knows how long! CB's and RCD's dont protect from every scenario. No wonder the welder was struggling a bit.
Anyway he got a 15A ext lead out and plugged it into a 15A GPO and had no drama after that.

sudso wrote: It tripped the CB, RCD, and safety switch at his house as well and the plug and GPO I could hardly touch it was so hot. Depending which wire touched the framework first the whole shed could have been live for who knows how long! CB's and RCD's dont protect from every scenario. No wonder the welder was struggling a bit.
Anyway he got a 15A ext lead out and plugged it into a 15A GPO and had no drama after that.

As a sparky for some reason it eats at me when people talk about an RCD and a Saftey switch as being different devices. Its an RCD and thats it.

As for the shed being live.... no. As soon as the active conductor touched the metal frame of the shed the RCD should have tripped first, even if it didnt the breaker would have tripped soon after.

So glad that people only ever use products exactly as the manufacturer intended .. it's not like anyone ever puts oversized tyres on vehicles or pumps way more power down standard drivelines etc .. Imagine how irresponsible that would be ... sheesh

A 10 amp socket running a 15amp device at less that 75% load is a 10 amp device isnt it ?
The peak loads would be transient at best for the average punter\backyard welder .. I have a couple of 15 amp plugs in my shed becase I got them installed when it was built .. but for may years I used my big old arc welder on 10 amp plugs with zero issues .. I did have a fan heater melt a power plug though. Should I plug them into the 15 amp sockets ?

1 word...

WOW...

love_mud wrote:So glad that people only ever use products exactly as the manufacturer intended .. it's not like anyone ever puts oversized tyres on vehicles or pumps way more power down standard drivelines etc .. Imagine how irresponsible that would be ... sheesh

A 10 amp socket running a 15amp device at less that 75% load is a 10 amp device isnt it ?
The peak loads would be transient at best for the average punter\backyard welder .. I have a couple of 15 amp plugs in my shed becase I got them installed when it was built .. but for may years I used my big old arc welder on 10 amp plugs with zero issues?

You're right. Those people who understand the implications and can manage their loads can probably work quite safely for years running a "15A" welder on a 10A circuit.

That doesn't mean that giving that advice on a public forum is a good idea. You have no control over who reads the information, or how well they understand the caveats that are applied. It only takes one numpty to read "15A is fine on 10A circuit" before who knows what goes wrong.

Worse still is a friend or relative who watches what you do, doesn't understand what you're doing, and has their own disaster.

If you need to, as a short term fix, be careful.

Long term, do it properly.