Outer Limits 4x4 Board

can you do both i cant find anything on here that tells ya

why would you want to out of interest? if your going to do an x-link then you will have ample amount of front end flex if your shocks are long enough and set up right etc.

ive got the flex arm in atm with hd 5in coils and have a shit load of room left under the gaurd but to tell you the truth i dont no if its the shocks or the springs or wat that is stoping it from flexing does anyone no how big of shocks you can fit without bottoming out on my set up ?

wade.s wrote:ive got the flex arm in atm with hd 5in coils and have a shit load of room left under the gaurd but to tell you the truth i dont no if its the shocks or the springs or wat that is stoping it from flexing does anyone no how big of shocks you can fit without bottoming out on my set up ?

If you have a shit load of room left under the gaurds you need bigger tyres

Disconnet your front shocks, meaure the open and closed lenghts of the shocks, flex it up with out the shocks and measure again from shock mount to shock mount. Now with these meaurements you can work out if your shocks are limiting your travel and if you need longer travel shocks and you can work out if you need to lower your bumpstops to stop the shocks from bottoming out.
I

wade.s wrote:ive got the flex arm in atm with hd 5in coils and have a shit load of room left under the gaurd but to tell you the truth i dont no if its the shocks or the springs or wat that is stoping it from flexing does anyone no how big of shocks you can fit without bottoming out on my set up ?

Have a close look at how your front suspension works. The superior flex arm is an attempt to overcome the binding effect of the radius arm geometry. Basically the front axle housing becomes one giant sway bar and the only articulation you can get is how much crush the radius arm bushes can sustain. The Superior super flex arm just has the bushes closer together effectively allowing increased leverage on them and subsequently crushing them more and allowing more "flex". The downside to this is the unbalanced braking effect the radius arms transmit through to the chassis. It is not equal and therefore the original arm transmits most of the force effectively lifting the chassis on that side. The X- link on the other hand removes the binding effect of the fixed radius arms totally. The front eyes of the arms are attached to the linkage and can rock through a single pivot point on the front of the diff housing. If you want to see how much flex you have really got, pull out the bottom bolt of the SF arm and then flex it up, then you will understand.

BadMav wrote: The downside to this is the unbalanced braking effect the radius arms transmit through to the chassis. It is not equal and therefore the original arm transmits most of the force effectively lifting the chassis on that side.

I have never noticed this when braking.

A good friend of mine has a suspension stuff 5 inch kit, Super flex arm passenger side and drop arm drivers side plus a whole lot of other goodies. Believe me, when you brake hard enough, it does exactly what I said.

BadMav wrote:suspension stuff

that explains a lot!

hey thanks heaps for the info fellas i will do the testing of my shocks ,hey do any of use go 4wdin with that bolt out i cant see it being any weaker as the driver side only has the 2 in ?

Their are a few reasons why this could be happening.
Torn Bushes
Incorrect shocks/ valving
incorrect coils
worn shocks
Fatigued coils
Soft bushes
I would be interested in what shocks/ valving that is fitted to this vehicle.
I am guessing it will be pro comp of rancho.

The kits that we sell complete do not have this braking problem but we have done a lot of trial and error with different brand coils and shock combinations.

We recommend always going slightly harder in the rear coils as this will firm up the ride, make the front handle better and promote the front to flex more.

Unfortunately when other shops sell our gear we do not have any input into how the vehicle should be set up to make it handle correctly and also at times the customer does not fully understand what they want themselves so this makes it hard for any 4wd shop to combine a package that will suit the customer correctly.

There has been many times when pissed off customers have rang us complaining our gear is no good only to find out they have been shafted buy their local shop selling them gear that is supposed to be Superior Engineering but is inferior cheaper rubbish sourced elswhere ( NO NAMES GIVEN) pretty easy to tell out gear from indian rubbish

Like any suspension the vehicle must be matched with correct rate coils , shocks valved to suit the particular application , this is why the SRC shocks have been so popular because we can valve these to any application and if you had a vehicle that did not handle how you wanted it too we just revalve the shocks for free to elimate problems like nose diving, boating ride, harsh low speed ect . ect.

At the end of the day if the vehicle is handling like it is stated the owner of the vehicle should give us a call or Suspension Stuff and we will give him some expert advice how to make the vehicle drive as it should instead of just assuming it should handle bad, if Shane at Suspenion stuff is not sure , but i am confident he will then give me a call directly .

X-links are best for all out flex but you need to fit the lock out pin to handle good again, Superior Super Flex arms are a no maintainence no stuffing around radius arm designed for high speed racing and extra flex.

Dont combine them as their is no need ! you need to choose your driving style to work out what will suit you best.

Super Flex arms have won more first place wins in High speed races as well as rockcrawling than i care to mention and that is because they have been set up correctly.
Michael
Superior Engineering

1MadEngineer wrote:

BadMav wrote:suspension stuff

that explains a lot!

why?

have toughdog shocks man ,i got the set up straight from your shed but your right the set up is really good for high speed stuff i dont no if this is any good but i can go 60 through the flat windy bush tracks and feel safe as no huge body roll and with the handleing and on road it handles like standard with stuff all pull when braking im just winging about getting abit more flex out the front

wade.s wrote:have toughdog shocks man ,i got the set up straight from your shed but your right the set up is really good for high speed stuff i dont no if this is any good but i can go 60 through the flat windy bush tracks and feel safe as no huge body roll and with the handleing and on road it handles like standard with stuff all pull when braking im just winging about getting abit more flex out the front

What setup do you run in the back of the truck?

This will have a massive effect on the balance of the truck and what the front end does (relative to the chassis/body)

wade.s wrote:hey thanks heaps for the info fellas i will do the testing of my shocks ,hey do any of use go 4wdin with that bolt out i cant see it being any weaker as the driver side only has the 2 in ?

I do it, not all the time and only when driving slow through some real rough stuff, same with another mate in his GQ swb and my brother in law in his 100 series. Never had any issues doing it, though I would never drive fast with it out. It flexes better than my mates (previously mentioned) super flex armed GQ and handles heaps better on road (with the bolt back in of course).

SuperiorEngineering wrote:The kits that we sell complete do not have this braking problem but we have done a lot of trial and error with different brand coils and shock combinations.

Michael, I realise that Superior will have done alot of research and had some trial & error in developing these arms but IMO the anti-rotational force (during braking) that the radius arms provide should be equal across the chassis which would therefore require two superflex arms. Now this I would be interested to see work. Have you tried this?

Rowen

wade.s wrote:have toughdog shocks man ,i got the set up straight from your shed but your right the set up is really good for high speed stuff i dont no if this is any good but i can go 60 through the flat windy bush tracks and feel safe as no huge body roll and with the handleing and on road it handles like standard with stuff all pull when braking im just winging about getting abit more flex out the front

Depending on what coils you are using you may be able to go slighlty lighter on the front, usually we supply heavy coils as their is nothing worse than warranty problems as most coil manufacturers do not want to honour claims so it is sometimes easier to go a bit on the heavier side to save aggrevation to the customer.
The other option is GU slotted bushes as we usually always supply solid front rubber bushes as the slotted bushes tear quicker but they do flex better.

BadMav wrote:

wade.s wrote:hey thanks heaps for the info fellas i will do the testing of my shocks ,hey do any of use go 4wdin with that bolt out i cant see it being any weaker as the driver side only has the 2 in ?

I do it, not all the time and only when driving slow through some real rough stuff, same with another mate in his GQ swb and my brother in law in his 100 series. Never had any issues doing it, though I would never drive fast with it out. It flexes better than my mates (previously mentioned) super flex armed GQ and handles heaps better on road (with the bolt back in of course).

SuperiorEngineering wrote:The kits that we sell complete do not have this braking problem but we have done a lot of trial and error with different brand coils and shock combinations.

Michael, I realise that Superior will have done alot of research and had some trial & error in developing these arms but IMO the anti-rotational force (during braking) that the radius arms provide should be equal across the chassis which would therefore require two superflex arms. Now this I would be interested to see work. Have you tried this?

Rowen

We have supplied the short arms on both sides of a comp truck but i honestly do not beleive you need that, you will suffer from axle wrap under heavy braking on a full size GQ/GU and their is a chance of more damage and premature wear to the unis if you are having axcessive axle wrap, not to mention the coils , shock bushes and shock case.
As mentioned earlier if the trucks are set up correctly they should handle quite fine , it must be remembered that the axle is a solid beam in the front although you are connecting with different size plates but if the coils and shocks do their job it will hold the truck stable under braking.
They are never going to be 100% as factory but if you combine better coils and shocks than factory than their is no raeson it wont handle at least as good as factory.

We do have occassional complaints maybe 1-2% of sales and almost 100% of those it is because Rancho or Pro Comps are fitted ,These we DO NOT recommend or their is other underlying issues with the suspension damaged or worn.

Michael

SuperiorEngineering wrote:it must be remembered that the axle is a solid beam in the front although you are connecting with different size plates but if the coils and shocks do their job it will hold the truck stable under braking

It was this that I was unimpressed about as my mates truck, of which the whole kit was installed by Suspension Stuff, braked unevenly when pushed hard, handled like a bag of. on the road and was outflexed by my shitta with a radius arm bolt out. He was rather disappointed. At the end of the day one radius arm applies more anti-rotational force on the axle because it has better leverage on it, this is why this one picks up the drivers side more than the left. Similar situation but alot worse would be if I left the front radius arm bolt out in one of mine and jumped on the picks at 60. Scary.

SuperiorEngineering wrote:We have supplied the short arms on both sides of a comp truck but i honestly do not beleive you need that, you will suffer from axle wrap under heavy braking on a full size GQ/GU

And after some thought, I totally agree. In this case, why not increase the centre to centre distance between the bushes? This IMO would increase stability under braking (as both arms are taking the braking force evenly) yet allow the increased flex as the combined crush of the 2 arms (with bush centres further apart) would equal the one standard/one short arm system.

I'm not picking on the SE product Michael, the SFA system does allow better flex than standard, I agree. I just think that it could be improved upon especially if we are to get them DOT approvable in QLD.

Cheers, Rowen

I thought my ears were burning.

As of December 2010 we will be bringing out a Suspension Stuff 6" shock to use with out 3" flexy coils and next year sometime we will do the 8" lift shocks to suit our 4 and 5" lift flexy coils. These shocks will cost the same as a Procomp but be better quality and valved to suit a Patrol. Tough Dog and SRC shocks will always be good alternatives but we can get away from the soft Procomp shocks.

Every customer who ends up with Procomp shocks gets told that they are going to get body roll because they are too soft for a Patrol. If you also remove your rear sway bar which a lot of people do, then this will give you even more body roll and up until now we have asked the customer to consider Tough Dogs or SRC shocks. These shocks are more expensive and also the customer may not want certain brands because of what their mate said or what they have read on forums.

Also, some customers couldn't care less about body roll because they use their vehicle in the bush and want it as soft as possible.

X-Link and Superflex Arms.
You wouldn't drive on the road with an X-Link unless you could lock it in or have decent sway bars fitted. You will on the other hand achieve the flex you want. On side slopes with an X-Link I would recommend a winch to pull your suspension down. Same deal with any Suspension that you get huge flex out of, whether it be a 3 link with panhard or 5 link or 2 Superflex arms with flex bushes.

They all have their pros and cons but for most wheelers who like to drive on the road to the bush then you can't go past the Superflex arms.

To get the most out of the Superflex arms or X-Link you could consider our Flexy coils which are 4 inches longer then a regular coil. However, you then have to get the longer shocks which leads you to either increase bump stops or shock tower spacers. Longer shocks etc can always be done down the track. You get great gains just with your regular shocks and coils.

Our front coils are made out of 18mm wire and the rears are either 20mm or 21mm.

Cheers
Shane

love ke70 wrote:

1MadEngineer wrote:

BadMav wrote:suspension stuff

that explains a lot!

why?

sorry, not bagging them in particular, shane trys better than anyone to sort this stuff out. Its more an ever increasing dislike of springs made by australian manufacturers (eg dobinsons) that charge top dollar, yet have very poor material and process selection based upon vehicle requirements. The 'experts' continually supply springs based upon spring rate and lift requirements, but overlook the real working parameters of these springs. The scragging and quality control is average at best. Yeah i know, 90+% will by cheap shit springs cus they are $2 cheaper than another company, and then whinge when they sag. But if people are willing to spend a few extra $ then top quality 'cold wound' springs which are far superior then the others might actually improve. Just read the warranty and process info from say EIBACH, their springs are tested to bind and still have a lifetime warranty, yet they are <~20% dearer than most other manufacturers.
Also most manufacturers in aus won't use any high end materials (eg inconel...), mainly due to them only having steel accounts with one steel, and they literally 'get what they are given'.

1MadEngineer wrote:

love ke70 wrote:

1MadEngineer wrote:

BadMav wrote:suspension stuff

that explains a lot!

why?

sorry, not bagging them in particular, shane trys better than anyone to sort this stuff out. Its more an ever increasing dislike of springs made by australian manufacturers (eg dobinsons) that charge top dollar, yet have very poor material and process selection based upon vehicle requirements. The 'experts' continually supply springs based upon spring rate and lift requirements, but overlook the real working parameters of these springs. The scragging and quality control is average at best. Yeah i know, 90+% will by cheap shit springs cus they are $2 cheaper than another company, and then whinge when they sag. But if people are willing to spend a few extra $ then top quality 'cold wound' springs which are far superior then the others might actually improve. Just read the warranty and process info from say EIBACH, their springs are tested to bind and still have a lifetime warranty, yet they are <~20% dearer than most other manufacturers.
Also most manufacturers in aus won't use any high end materials (eg inconel...), mainly due to them only having steel accounts with one steel, and they literally 'get what they are given'.

I don't go by what Dobinsons have in a catalogue, the flexy coils that others get from Dobinsons are too soft but we stopped using these a couple of years ago. I am nearly 100% certain that this guy would have the correct coils, it would the the shocks at fault.
Dobinsons 100% scrag all their coils(Tested to Bind). Despite not using the same steel as Eibach they have a 99.9% success rate, at least this is my experience. So 1 coil in every thousand might have a problem. Yes I have done more warranties but not sent them back to Dobinsons because the coil was not at fault. Usually it is because we haven't taken all the customers accessories into account or more often then not, the customer decided he only loads it up with everything very occasionally and it sits too high.

I have tried cold wound coils manufactured over seas (Probably not Eibach) and we found that they sagged. I have spoken to several people in the know about cold wound coils and they don't believe it is a better method. In the end, I think it largely comes down to the manufacturing process by the individual manufacturer. Also we have tried to get coils off some companies who claim to do better springs but then you try and put an order in and they can't do the quantities.

Having said all that, we are now using higher quality steel with our Patrol Suspension Stuff Flexy Coils then what Dobinsons use. (It is a secret, at least for now).

Shane

BadMav wrote: It was this that I was unimpressed about as my mates truck, of which the whole kit was installed by Suspension Stuff, braked unevenly when pushed hard, handled like a bag of. on the road and was outflexed by my shitta with a radius arm bolt out. He was rather disappointed. At the end of the day one radius arm applies more anti-rotational force on the axle because it has better leverage on it, this is why this one picks up the drivers side more than the left.

I don't know what gear your mate has but this my set up that works fine onroad and offroad, HD rear flexy coils, MD front flexy coils, rear sway bar with boss shocks. Spring rates are very important so get the superflex arms to work to their full potential.

SIM79 wrote:

BadMav wrote: It was this that I was unimpressed about as my mates truck, of which the whole kit was installed by Suspension Stuff, braked unevenly when pushed hard, handled like a bag of. on the road and was outflexed by my shitta with a radius arm bolt out. He was rather disappointed. At the end of the day one radius arm applies more anti-rotational force on the axle because it has better leverage on it, this is why this one picks up the drivers side more than the left.

I don't know what gear your mate has but this my set up that works fine onroad and offroad, HD rear flexy coils, MD front flexy coils, rear sway bar with boss shocks. Spring rates are very important so get the superflex arms to work to their full potential.

To me it just seems like a huge expense and alot of time, trial and error to get it right. When I pull a radius arm bolt mine will outperform it off road and slip the bolt back in on road for far superior handling. Takes a minute to do and is a whole lot cheaper.

Huge expense no, trial and error no.
For all we know this suspension eg shocks ect is what the customer insisted on.?

It must be remembered that there are many types of people in this world, some like throwing a spanner , others dont, some like getting dirty , some dont, ect,ect.

If you like to get under your truck and remove your bolt that suits you and that is great , i myself would never bother and would choose a suspension kit that is maintanace free, but thats me.

My customers should pay the money once and never have to touch the suspension for the life of it apart from washing the dirt and grime from it.( that is how it should be! )

There are a massive amount of these arms sold that are used in the racing scene as well as recreation and for these guys it would never work for them to use standard arms and remove the bolt,( firstly time and piss weak standard cast arm that break, and just plain effort ) who really want's to undo bolts when you should be 4wding with your mates. Not many guys.

That would be a poll in itself that only the guys who remove their bolts could be bothered to post. ( not being smart but honest opinion)

Any way there is no extra effort in setting up a truck correctly than yours is, it is just unfortunate your friend is not happy with his setup but he should be approaching shane with his concerns if it truly does worry him( neither shane or myself have been approached from him as yet, i know because shane and i discussed this today on the phone !! ) and i know shane will help him out until he is happy.
Winging on a forum will not fix the problem , only a phone call will, Approx 30 cents
Michael

SuperiorEngineering wrote:Huge expense no, trial and error no.
For all we know this suspension eg shocks ect is what the customer insisted on.?

$1300 for a pair of 5 inch arms is expensive enough but add $490 each for the SRC shocks just to get it to work better looks awfully expensive to me.

SuperiorEngineering wrote: There are a massive amount of these arms sold that are used in the racing scene as well as recreation and for these guys it would never work for them to use standard arms and remove the bolt,( firstly time and piss weak standard cast arm that break, and just plain effort ) who really want's to undo bolts when you should be 4wding with your mates. Not many guys.

I see your point, but these arms are not legal to be fitted on a registered car in QLD. Neither are my now 3 inch coils and 32s. At least the dodgy cast arms I have are technically legal. Don't confuse me saying legal with stronger, the superior arms are obviously much stronger and much better designed. You would have to agree however, with the crackdown on modded 4wds in QLD, alot of people won't use them. Same goes for the fitment of X-links.

SuperiorEngineering wrote: ... it is just unfortunate your friend is not happy with his setup but he should be approaching shane with his concerns if it truly does worry him( neither shane or myself have been approached from him as yet, i know because shane and i discussed this today on the phone !! ) and i know shane will help him out until he is happy.
Winging on a forum will not fix the problem , only a phone call will, Approx 30 cents
Michael

I haven't spoken to him for a while now (conflicting shifts etc) and as far as I know it's off the road anyway as the DOT were on the prowl for it. I don't know if he contacted Shane, I'm just giving my opinion as well as his thoughts at the time we went wheeling.

Rowen

I wasn't quite sure what i should use in the front of my GU. X-link or SE super flex arms.
But this topic helped me to do a dicision.
I dont like companys picking on products of other companys like the Dobbins stuff - was a good fella with a lot of skills.
It is also wrong to pick on a company that is selling products for me. Suspension Stuff - heads up!
And i dont like people there are always pushing products for one and the same company and are not an official member of the company (1MadEngineer).
I will use a X-link!
With a lock-out pin anyway the cheapest and best way.

Thanks for the topic!

Regards
mancap

If I were to run an x-link I would consider running a modified sway bar that will allow you to flex but will allow some resistance . Ideally one that you can disconnect on the fly. I would definitely fit a rear sway bar. One that allows flex of course.
Something to consider also is that the x-link sits at the front of the diff and can snag you on rocks. Simlar to drop boxes though in the sense that it is a very minor problem.

interesting read guys. from experience i have had the standard,3rd arms, then 3rd arms with the x-link fitted, now a modded 5 link and will be doing a complete changed setup for the new truck.

EVERY version has its pros and cons and every system is a compromise of what you would like to achieve. At the end of the day drive what you have and just enjoy it. drive it accordingly to its performance and have fun.
as the boys say a phone call or droping over with the car would help. from my dealings with superior and suspension stuff and what I have heard 1st hand of reputable mates has always been 100% positive if an issue arrises.

Shane the x-link makes an awesome battering ram as well... also we had a custom front diff guard that sat out a fair bit that we had to cut to allow the flex as it hit.
keep up the great work guys.

BadMav wrote:I see your point, but these arms are not legal to be fitted on a registered car in QLD. Neither are my now 3 inch coils and 32s. At least the dodgy cast arms I have are technically legal. Don't confuse me saying legal with stronger, the superior arms are obviously much stronger and much better designed. You would have to agree however, with the crackdown on modded 4wds in QLD, alot of people won't use them. Same goes for the fitment of X-links.

I'm pretty sure last time I checked removing vital bolts from the suspension of your vehicle isn't roadworthy either....

chunks wrote:

BadMav wrote:I see your point, but these arms are not legal to be fitted on a registered car in QLD. Neither are my now 3 inch coils and 32s. At least the dodgy cast arms I have are technically legal. Don't confuse me saying legal with stronger, the superior arms are obviously much stronger and much better designed. You would have to agree however, with the crackdown on modded 4wds in QLD, alot of people won't use them. Same goes for the fitment of X-links.

I'm pretty sure last time I checked removing vital bolts from the suspension of your vehicle isn't roadworthy either....

That's right. Never drive on the road with it out.

BadMav wrote:
I see your point, but these arms are not legal to be fitted on a registered car in QLD. Neither are my now 3 inch coils and 32s. At least the dodgy cast arms I have are technically legal. Don't confuse me saying legal with stronger, the superior arms are obviously much stronger and much better designed. You would have to agree however, with the crackdown on modded 4wds in QLD, alot of people won't use them. Same goes for the fitment of X-links.

I know this thread is old, but what ever.

Your 32s are smaller then the largest factory tire option. If you want to stick to the 15mm you can fit KM2 33s as they are 14mm taller then the tallest 750r16 tire i could find.
BF list them as 826mm (32.5inch) tall
750R16 is the tallest stock tire,
Yokohamas Y735b light truck tire in the 750R16 size is listed as being 812mm. So the KM2 in a 33 is only 14mm over, making it legal.