Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Well I'm interested in this petrol injection for diesels.

Has anyone here done it?

Looking for first hand experiences.

Reckon it's possible to diy?

Go look at the Chip it website, they do a kit. I have had a Gm with duramax in it with a petrol kit, the owner loved it.

From the info it works.


Andy

Hi Andy,

I have seen the chip it website:

"With its efficiency we can boast increased midrange torque figures of around 40 - 50 % for most vehicles".

was wondering if it is real world figures.

I cant warrant the $2000 to the minister for finance, especially as I have only just got the turbo setup working properly

Surely it's not a complicated setup.
1x fuel pump
1x petrol injector
1x rising rate fuel regulator
1x 10L petrol tank
something simple and cheap to run it all.. maybe megasquirt? or a motorbike ecu?

If injecting fuel makes that much of a difference, surely someone has rigged up one in their backyard? not that i can find one anywhere on the net..

I haven't clicked the link, but am assuming this is a commercially available product. Wouldn't fuel predetonate from the compression? If so, would you need to run rich or lean? I'd assume rich...but thats only because running rich slightly reduces chance of predetonation in a petrol car...

possible using something like the extra injector ecu's you can get for petrol motors.
it certainly won't run "rich" as that would be pouring in enough petrol to blow the motor.
i suspect its a small amount of petrol which pre ignites upon compression which increases compression pressure and heat. ie it would be like running very high compression without the drawback of increase work load.
to me it screams dodgy.

however the big catch is your car modification laws and if your allowed to fit extra fuel tank etc.

as far as i can gather the petrol helps the diesel burn more efficiently, it is only a very small amount ie 10L per 140L diesel. It also apparently cools the intake air helping to reduce EGT's. there are tons of other listed benefits on the site, combustion chamber cleaning etc.

but water cools and cleans it without the risk of detonation or piston damage.
the amount of cooling that amount of petrol will do is minimal.
even methanol is a better choice than petrol because it takes a higher temp to ignite it and water/meth guys don't normally run 100% methanol because of damage it can do.

the petrol system is relying solely on that you only inject a tiny amount to not cause damage. if the motor gulps a bit of oil from the breather it can cause a much bigger bang than expected.

Petrol injection is the new lpg injection.
Same risks and problems, but worse because petrol can take a lower compression ratio than LPG can.

KiwiBacon wrote:Petrol injection is the new lpg injection.
Same risks and problems, but worse because petrol can take a lower compression ratio than LPG can.

I didn't actually realise there were issues with lpg injection

So, petrol might ignite before the piston reaches the top? due to the heat in the cylinder? and this would flog out the bottom end?
I'm happy with how my 1hz goes with 7psi, enough power and 13.3L/100kms fully loaded for camping, (was 18-20L/100kms pre turbo), so i might just leave it at that

crunk81us wrote:

KiwiBacon wrote:Petrol injection is the new lpg injection.
Same risks and problems, but worse because petrol can take a lower compression ratio than LPG can.

I didn't actually realise there were issues with lpg injection

So, petrol might ignite before the piston reaches the top? due to the heat in the cylinder? and this would flog out the bottom end?
I'm happy with how my 1hz goes with 7psi, enough power and 13.3L/100kms fully loaded for camping, (was 18-20L/100kms pre turbo), so i might just leave it at that

Generally there will be no preignition if the stoichiometric 14.7:1 air/fuel ratio is not present. It would be like trying to run an overly lean car - even with an ignition source it will not fire reliably, if at all.

DAMKIA wrote:

crunk81us wrote:

KiwiBacon wrote:Petrol injection is the new lpg injection.
Same risks and problems, but worse because petrol can take a lower compression ratio than LPG can.

I didn't actually realise there were issues with lpg injection

So, petrol might ignite before the piston reaches the top? due to the heat in the cylinder? and this would flog out the bottom end?
I'm happy with how my 1hz goes with 7psi, enough power and 13.3L/100kms fully loaded for camping, (was 18-20L/100kms pre turbo), so i might just leave it at that

Generally there will be no preignition if the stoichiometric 14.7:1 air/fuel ratio is not present. It would be like trying to run an overly lean car - even with an ignition source it will not fire reliably, if at all.

You might want to check the lower explosive limit.



















1.3% (so a long way from 14.7:1)

crunk81us wrote:as far as i can gather the petrol helps the diesel burn more efficiently, it is only a very small amount ie 10L per 140L diesel. It also apparently cools the intake air helping to reduce EGT's. there are tons of other listed benefits on the site, combustion chamber cleaning etc.

Us old time truck drivers use to throw a bit of super in the tanks to "clean the injectors" at the rate of 5l per 1000l

we didnt do it all the time only about once a month coudnt say weather the performance was any better or worse but it used to throw big flames out the pipes at night pulling up a big hill


Just chuck a liter or 2 next tank and report how it go's

Hamo wrote:Us old time truck drivers use to throw a bit of super in the tanks to "clean the injectors" at the rate of 5l per 1000l

we didnt do it all the time only about once a month coudnt say weather the performance was any better or worse but it used to throw big flames out the pipes at night pulling up a big hill


Just chuck a liter or 2 next tank and report how it go's

Petrol in the tank is completely different to petrol up the intake.
In the tank it's not injected until it's needed. Vs sitting in a cylinder that's getting hotter and smaller than petrol can handle.

Hamo wrote:

crunk81us wrote:as far as i can gather the petrol helps the diesel burn more efficiently, it is only a very small amount ie 10L per 140L diesel. It also apparently cools the intake air helping to reduce EGT's. there are tons of other listed benefits on the site, combustion chamber cleaning etc.

Us old time truck drivers use to throw a bit of super in the tanks to "clean the injectors" at the rate of 5l per 1000l
we didnt do it all the time only about once a month coudnt say weather the performance was any better or worse but it used to throw big flames out the pipes at night pulling up a big hill
Just chuck a liter or 2 next tank and report how it go's

forget doing that these days with low sulphur fuel. the old fuel had a enough lube that you could get away with it. not any more. you will stuff the pumps and injectors.
also its way different from the petrol injection system. at least with the petrol in the diesel it ignites as its injected. petrol breathed in with the air can burn before the diesel is injected.

even tho the petrol will be a seriously lean ratio, that amount of heat and pressure is going to make it react with air at some point. it may not get a flame front going but there is always the risk of it igniting any engine oil in the cylinder. of coarse there is always the risk of the system failing and injecting to much. much like some of the early lpg systems that blew up diesels.

You might want to look for some reliable dyno reports of turbo 1hz's running LPG (or petrol)

Because I recall a thread where some bloke spent 4 grand putting LPG on a NA 1hz, only to get less of a power increase than he would have, had he installed a turbo with a very moderate boost level. It has something to do with either no turbo, or the indirect injection.

i would be very wary of adding to the combustion temperatures or stresses in a 1HZ, they are already marginal once a turbo is added, if EGTs and cooling arent taken care of, turbo'd 1HZs seem to be a time bomb

Petrol injection is very much the same as LPG, you would need to use 98 octane to get any decent substitution and like lpg there are issue. The biggest is pre ignition due to excessive amounts of LPG/petrol. If the diesel injection is not 100%, injectors and alike then the issues get worse as hot spotting and piston failure seem to follow suit. As for making the diesel burn better, it makes the diesel hotter and combustion can be more complete but the search for power ususally means people add too much resulting in high oxides of nitrogen and visible soot due, very few people remove any diesel so the increase in visible soot and hydrocarbons increases usually too. Many years ago when I was at Gasresearch we did a lot with CNG which is better than petrol or LPG due to it being 130 octane the substitution rates can be considerably higher. The best itme to introduce petrol or LPG is cruise, off boost, anywhere where the power output is low due to lower combustion pressures.

PGS 4WD wrote:Petrol injection is very much the same as LPG, you would need to use 98 octane to get any decent substitution and like lpg there are issue. The biggest is pre ignition due to excessive amounts of LPG/petrol. If the diesel injection is not 100%, injectors and alike then the issues get worse as hot spotting and piston failure seem to follow suit. As for making the diesel burn better, it makes the diesel hotter and combustion can be more complete but the search for power ususally means people add too much resulting in high oxides of nitrogen and visible soot due, very few people remove any diesel so the increase in visible soot and hydrocarbons increases usually too. Many years ago when I was at Gasresearch we did a lot with CNG which is better than petrol or LPG due to it being 130 octane the substitution rates can be considerably higher. The best itme to introduce petrol or LPG is cruise, off boost, anywhere where the power output is low due to lower combustion pressures.

Most of these things work on a +5+ PSI with a limit on how low the Boost pressure is.

PGS 4WD wrote:Petrol injection is very much the same as LPG, you would need to use 98 octane to get any decent substitution and like lpg there are issue. The biggest is pre ignition due to excessive amounts of LPG/petrol. If the diesel injection is not 100%, injectors and alike then the issues get worse as hot spotting and piston failure seem to follow suit. As for making the diesel burn better, it makes the diesel hotter and combustion can be more complete but the search for power ususally means people add too much resulting in high oxides of nitrogen and visible soot due, very few people remove any diesel so the increase in visible soot and hydrocarbons increases usually too. Many years ago when I was at Gasresearch we did a lot with CNG which is better than petrol or LPG due to it being 130 octane the substitution rates can be considerably higher. The best itme to introduce petrol or LPG is cruise, off boost, anywhere where the power output is low due to lower combustion pressures.

CNG is the only gas I know of which can withstand the compression pressures and temperatures of a diesel without pre-ignition. As a result it's the only gas used by industrial stationary diesel engines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MW50" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

KiwiBacon wrote:
CNG is the only gas I know of which can withstand the compression pressures and temperatures of a diesel without pre-ignition. As a result it's the only gas used by industrial stationary diesel engines.

did you see the bit about the NZ company that has converted a diesel truck to run methane, which is collected from rubbish dumps/land fill.

Why not just run water/meth injection triggered by boost. plenty of people do it with diesels in the states, even a few in oz. and lots of drag cars etc. do it.

tweak'e wrote:

KiwiBacon wrote:CNG is the only gas I know of which can withstand the compression pressures and temperatures of a diesel without pre-ignition. As a result it's the only gas used by industrial stationary diesel engines.

did you see the bit about the NZ company that has converted a diesel truck to run methane, which is collected from rubbish dumps/land fill.

Not the landfill one, but I sat through a coal-gasification presentation a few weeks back. By "converted diesel truck" they mean "we bought a gas engine from cummins-westport".

I don't see it ever making a dent in road transport here. The volume needed for fuel tanks on trucks is far too large and the refuelling more time consuming and more hazardous.

Tomo_89 wrote:Why not just run water/meth injection triggered by boost. plenty of people do it with diesels in the states, even a few in oz. and lots of drag cars etc. do it.

Because it does SFA.

Water meth does work if set up correctly. Had it on my own car a long time ago, kept egts down, made more power, I was impressed.

The down side is handling methanol and having a big enough tank for it.



Andy