Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Gday all,

Just wondering if anyone else has had problems with second batteries not lasting the distance? i purchased a Well Known brand cranking and deep cycle battery (700cca or 105AH) about two years ago when i brought my new patrol. about 6 months ago the winch stopped working which i assumed was a problem with the winch but after testing me second battery over the weekend it had dropped a cell! (showing 10.3 volts and a green 'OK" indicatior). the worst thing is its just out of warranty and the battery blokes wont swap it over. the ONLY time i had something running off the battery was using the winch once and the driving lights, and there were no faults (short circuits) to create any problems with the battery. I also tested the dual battery isloator and its all good (14.8V with engine running). The guy at the battery shop suggested i dont run my fridge for 4 days straight off it without putting it on charge, but i dont get it? i dont own a fridge! I think he just didnt want to deal with me.

What is the common problem causing a dropped cell in 12v batteries? apart from overdrawing them? and can anyone suggest a decent size deep cycle battery that will last long time? i wont be buying the same brand battery again, for any of my cars. Ive had an old bosh truck and farm in a GQ for 6 years now and its still going strong. Paid 180 bucks for it. and i shell out 270 bucks for this deep cycle/cranking battery and i get only 18 months?

Any info is a big help!

One word for you. Optima.

You pay the $400 for it and it will last 4 or more times longer than another brand of deep cycle under the same conditions.

More info about your system needed....

Were you running your winch off your second battery (implied?)? Why? (most ppl do it off starting battery as they are able to handle the heavy current. Alternator can charge the battery directly too. Most isolators will NOT carry enough charge across the two batteries with the winch connected through an isolator)

How is the second battery charged? What sort of isolator if any?

What type of battery? What brand of battery? (Very few "mixed" starter/deep cycle types are worth their chop. Most AGM types do far better in this regard than flooded cell sloppies.)

By all accounts from what you have said or implied you have killed the battery, rather than being anything specifically wrong with the battery itself. Deep cycle batteries will not tolerate the heavy currents of winch motors (generally 2-3 x the current of a normal starter motor) through their plates before heating up and warping then shorting themselves internally, as you have experienced. Isolators are there to separate your "engine on" components (general starting currents, EFI, lights, + winches) from your "engine off " (UHF radios, fridges, camp lighting, etc) components, with the specific reason that any of your "engine off" components left on too long will not prevent you from starting your vehicle. Winching should always be done with the motor running at a high idle (1500-2000 rpm) where possible to get the alternator to part charge the battery as the winches (say a 6 hp motor - todays standard) will draw about 400 amp. Your 105AH battery if isolated would be derated due to the higher current load to about 80ah meaning it would be fried in 12 mins flat. Do that five or ten times and your battery would be history. This is what I believe you have done.

You need to take it to an autoelectrician and get them to configure your winch and other electrics in the standard way, then think about a new battery.

Alright, im just going to name names, its just easlier. im not saying that there is anything wrong with these products/companies but this is just my experience with them.

Car was brought new in 2008 via an agent, which was then sent over to tjm who installed a dual battery system (rotronics brand-big blue box-) with a supercharge allrounder cranking/deepcycle battery (700cca AND 105ah). they also installed driving lights (ipf9000's), winch (t-max 9000lbs) and a fridge point in the back. all Extras were run from the second battery, thats just the way they did it.

Since owning the car, ive used ONLY the winch once and driving lights frequently. fridge point hasnt been used and wouldnt of worked anyway because they failed to crimp the negative terminal sufficiently to create a connection, hence the socket not working. (figured that out the same time i tested the battery)

So my first question is why would a battery just "drop" a cell? i didnt discharge it enough to cause damage (the only time the winch was used the engine was running and idle up was in the on position), i havent had any prolonged drain on the battery and ive checked the isolator and it all works and charges the battery. as It is an "allrounder" ie cranking and deepcycle, the battery in more then capable of running the winch. otherwise why would they suggest that it could be used as a starting battery and class is as an allrounder? (allthough that piece of information was given to me buy the local battery man....who also said i could run a winch off a deep cycle AND blamed me for running my non-existant fridge for too long on the battery, causing the dropped cell.)

I first noticed the winch not working about 18 months into owning the car which i thought was a buggered winch but i now know the battery is to blame, classic signs of a battery with a dropped cell. winch would only work for about 5 seconds then id have to wait for 30 seconds with the engine running to be able to winch for another 5 seconds = winch just running off the surface charge the alternator was putting into the battery.

my second question is are the optima batteries really worth it? for the price of the one i have in mind, i can buy two deep cycles and run a tripple battery setup and run the winch off the standard cranking battery. are there any other decent deep cycles out there apart from optima?

Were you running your winch off your second battery (implied?)? Why? (most ppl do it off starting battery as they are able to handle the heavy current. Alternator can charge the battery directly too. Most isolators will NOT carry enough charge across the two batteries with the winch connected through an isolator)

(allthough that piece of information was given to me buy the local battery man....who also said i could run a winch off a deep cycle AND blamed me for running my non-existant fridge for too long on the battery, causing the dropped cell.) This is bad advice and I think you realise that.

This is important.

Gary, if the controller is the same as my father's it doesn't "join" the two batteries - it swaps the alternator from starting to auxiliary. It charges the starting battery after starting, then alternator output and sense wire are swapped to the second battery. There's a big sign under dad's bonnet stating that ALL aftermarket accessories must be connected to the second battery, not the primary.

If the battery is out of warranty the supplier is quite within their rights to deny a claim. Given the use you describe my best guess is a faulty battery, and a good vendor would process it as a warranty claim anyway.

Chalk it up to experience, and never use that vendor again.

Silver_pig_gq wrote:my second question is are the optima batteries really worth it? for the price of the one i have in mind, i can buy two deep cycles and run a tripple battery setup and run the winch off the standard cranking battery. are there any other decent deep cycles out there apart from optima?

Yes there are many.
But the Optima batteries have outperformed ALOT of big names.
Im running a Century deep cycle at moment because right before a trip my 2nd battery died and my local bloke only had Century. It seems fine so far but wont run the fridge for as long as id like.
My start battery is getting long in the tooth and i will be replacing it with an Optima.
The feedback i received from Optima owners over the last 6 months of me enquiring has been more than enough for me to have made up my mind on sourcing one.
They also offer a 2 yr warranty

Be careful of the 2 year warranty on the optima, some suppliers consider 4wds to be commercial vehicles and will therefore only offer a 6 month warranty. It's a crock of sh.t but true. We sold one at work a while ago when we found out the hard way about the warranty issue. We copped it on the chin and supplied the customer with a new one but not everyone will, so make sure if you buy an optima the warranty period is specified and also that it is known that it's going into a 4wd. I use delkor in my truck, marine for starting and deep cycle for the fridge and accessories and i love them. Went to delkor after i had the same problem with an MRV70 supercharge. The super charge start batteries are good, but they've change the mrv 70 now.

I am finding this a bit confuseing.

Can you answer damica's Questions please, maybe include a simple wireing diagram.

Deep cycle dont do winching, may do in conjunction with cranker to share load.

Does winch run from No 2 battery? If yes do you run a switch and appropriat cabling to join with start battery.Same diameter copper as goes from crank to starter motor

Battery can drop cell anytime, 2 years + 2 days is normal for battery life in my experience.

There are lot of deep cycles there depending on intended use and $$ available, look at trogen for example, try a little use of you faverite search engine yourself.
Work out what your load will be from the deep cycle it will help with reliable service, fridge eats electricity, most appliances have power rateing in watts or amps,

im guessing that by the first post YES hes runnin winch of his second battery!

big no no and will kill his next one if thats the case! but without answering questions from others, how the hell can he be helped?

I assume you plan on running a fridge in the future, if not, maybe you dont need the 2nd battery at all?

Cells can just "die". A bump in the road , overload current etc can cause this too.

A winch should be run off a starting batt.
With the charge swapping isolator, winch can be off either batt IF 2nd bat is staring capable.
A proper deep cycle will/may distort plates and drop a cell if used for high currents accessories (ie.winch).
Deep cycle is good for fridge, lights, radio, pc, etc.

Bazzle

Dropped cells are usually caused by one of the plates breaking it's mounts inside the battery and touching the plate next to it. Corrugated roads are great at doing this. And agree with others, the winch should definitely not be hooked up to the deep cycle battery.

No one has considered the simple fact of heat.

As ambient temperature increases the voltage in which a battery requires to charge (both absorption and float) decreases. Most flooded lead acid batteries required 14.4VDC absorption and 13.6VDC float AT 25DEG C.

14.8VDC into a battery underbonnet over a period of time, even into the "Allrounder" (calcuim battery) will hold the battery in a gassing voltage for a long period of time. This means loss of electrylite (fluid/acid) and as these batteries are maintainance free you cant top them up.

The heat issue is even worse in a GU patrol which you have pointed out and if its the TD either 3 or 4.2 they generate massive heat very close to the second battery (read TURBO)

If there is no electrylite in the battery it will be no suprise it has failed, fallen to 10.4VDC and even if in warranty time if they wanted to push the cart they wouldnt actaually have to replace it.

By all means go a optima or any co-poloymere cased AGM battery as they handle heat very well, but i would also look at installing a insulated heat shield around the second battery tray.

Otherwise go a good flooded lead acid battery that you can maintain and top up the cells as required.

Cheers,

Justin

Yes heat is a battery killer we all forget about.
My brother moved his batterys in '70 series cruiser to under tray from under bonnet and has never looked back. the afternoon work makeing new trays and longer cables have paid for themselves he says.