Outer Limits 4x4 Board

How come the nissan zd30 gets such a bad rap, but the early 80 series 1hdt with as many failures doesnt?

And on top of that people still ask, and pay well over market value for an early TD 80 series.

I think toyota drivers are just a bit daft.

was this the motor with big end problems? the one that toyota recalled or different.

I think one of the biggest thorns in the side of patrol drivers, is nissan failing to even recognise and acknowledge there is a problem.

oldmate wrote:How come the nissan zd30 gets such a bad rap, but the early 80 series 1hdt with as many failures doesnt?

And on top of that people still ask, and pay well over market value for an early TD 80 series.

I think toyota drivers are just a bit daft.

"as many failures" based on what evidence? Ive seen many more ZD30's go than tojo ones.

At least the Toyota motors made power before they shat themselves . A zd30 makes less power then a postie bike . In saying that i havent herd of many engine failures in that engine .

A while ago my uncle who works for telstra told me that 18 out of the 25 patrols had a engine failure on the exact same component at roughly the same kms.

But as I said these were a while ago and surely Nissan would have fixed the problem.

Also they all came from the same fleet when that motor was first released so not sure if it was just a bad series..

Brad

not all early toyotas had the bearing problem
the problem was there were two bottom end bearing suppliers one suppliers bearings were failing
but toyota had no record of which vehicles had wot bearings
so toyota would not recal them
once these bearings have been replaced there should not be a problem with the engine
cheers
Gordon

people were getting alot more KMs out of the 1hdt then the zd30 from my understanding.
and you just change the bearings and its good to go.
and the issue was fixed before the 1HDFT was released.
so i dont think thats comparing apples with apples.

its like comparing aids to an itchy ballsack.

oldmate wrote: I think toyota drivers are just a bit daft.

everyone has missed the most important bit

pig 83 wrote: A zd30 makes less power then a postie bike .

Probably better, if you don't know what you are talking about, if you don't write posts like that.

toaddog wrote:

pig 83 wrote: A zd30 makes less power then a postie bike .

Probably better, if you don't know what you are talking about, if you don't write posts like that.

Lucky enough for u i do have a fair idea about what i am talking about then . Although i do apperciate your concern for me .

Jcas24 wrote: I think one of the biggest thorns in the side of patrol drivers, is nissan failing to even recognise and acknowledge there is a problem.

absolutely.

in the UK one of the navara motors is throwing rods through the side due to bearing problems. even after campaigning and tv coverage by a lot of pissed off motorists Nissan only offered to extend the warranty another year or so. made no mention on what is causing the bearings to fail.
if they mentioned what was the cause at least you could go get it fixed before it failed.

MADSHORT wrote:not all early toyotas had the bearing problem
the problem was there were two bottom end bearing suppliers one suppliers bearings were failing
but toyota had no record of which vehicles had wot bearings
so toyota would not recal them
once these bearings have been replaced there should not be a problem with the engine
cheers
Gordon

So this has nothing at all to do with the research paper available online concerned with solving cavitation in the 7th crank bearing on a 6 cylinder diesel?
Nothing at all?
Not even when one of the authors worked for toyota?

http://www.tytlabs.co.jp/english/review ... aoyama.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I honestly dont know the history on either engines but when I was the workshop controler at MgGrath for VW the Nissan boys had the 3.0 tdi lined up for engine replacement they did 2 a week for the entire year I worked there.

http://www.tytlabs.co.jp/english/review ... aoyama.pdf

yeah .. what those blokes said ...

pig 83 wrote:

toaddog wrote:

pig 83 wrote: A zd30 makes less power then a postie bike .

Probably better, if you don't know what you are talking about, if you don't write posts like that.

Lucky enough for u i do have a fair idea about what i am talking about then . Although i do apperciate your concern for me .

You are a rooster. Lol


Every manufacturer has its lemons. Nature of mass production as cheap as possible.

I imagine the reason Toyota no longer catches grief for the explosive tendencies of its early 80 series engines is because that bomb went off a long time ago, so to speak, while ZD30s are still committing suicide on a regular basis.

An early 80 series dies in 2011, and the response will probably be "Well, it's an old engine, what do you expect?"

Mrowka wrote:I imagine the reason Toyota no longer catches grief for the explosive tendencies of its early 80 series engines is because that bomb went off a long time ago, so to speak, while ZD30s are still committing suicide on a regular basis.

An early 80 series dies in 2011, and the response will probably be "Well, it's an old engine, what do you expect?"

that and the problem can be fixed, unlike the ZD30 which nissan refuses to acknowledge, and there is no apparent fix other than rebuild(if you can) or replace

Shadow wrote:that and the problem can be fixed, unlike the ZD30 which nissan refuses to acknowledge, and there is no apparent fix other than rebuild(if you can) or replace

The only way a ZD30 can grenade itself is if EGT's get out of control. Running one with a boost gauge you'd spot trouble long before and simply back off until you can find the sensor that's causing it. IMO it's totally manageable and avoidable.

There is a lot of guff on the net about boost controllers etc to stop it, they won't help. The problem is fuel, the boost spikes are a symptom, not the cause. The cause is overfuel which an EGT gauge will show every time, back off the pedal and the EGT's will come back down.

KiwiBacon wrote:

Shadow wrote:that and the problem can be fixed, unlike the ZD30 which nissan refuses to acknowledge, and there is no apparent fix other than rebuild(if you can) or replace

The only way a ZD30 can grenade itself is if EGT's get out of control. Running one with a boost gauge you'd spot trouble long before and simply back off until you can find the sensor that's causing it. IMO it's totally manageable and avoidable.

There is a lot of guff on the net about boost controllers etc to stop it, they won't help. The problem is fuel, the boost spikes are a symptom, not the cause. The cause is overfuel which an EGT gauge will show every time, back off the pedal and the EGT's will come back down.

So run (like I think you should on any turbo motor) boost and EGT gauges and you should be able to keep it in one piece ?

KiwiBacon wrote:

Shadow wrote:that and the problem can be fixed, unlike the ZD30 which nissan refuses to acknowledge, and there is no apparent fix other than rebuild(if you can) or replace

The only way a ZD30 can grenade itself is if EGT's get out of control. Running one with a boost gauge you'd spot trouble long before and simply back off until you can find the sensor that's causing it. IMO it's totally manageable and avoidable.

There is a lot of guff on the net about boost controllers etc to stop it, they won't help. The problem is fuel, the boost spikes are a symptom, not the cause. The cause is overfuel which an EGT gauge will show every time, back off the pedal and the EGT's will come back down.

thats assuming that people watch gauges and know what their gauge readings mean.

Joe average who has a shiny new Pootrol isnt going to know he should fit EGT and Boost gauges, then watch them like a hawk

love_mud wrote:

KiwiBacon wrote:

Shadow wrote:that and the problem can be fixed, unlike the ZD30 which nissan refuses to acknowledge, and there is no apparent fix other than rebuild(if you can) or replace

The only way a ZD30 can grenade itself is if EGT's get out of control. Running one with a boost gauge you'd spot trouble long before and simply back off until you can find the sensor that's causing it. IMO it's totally manageable and avoidable.

There is a lot of guff on the net about boost controllers etc to stop it, they won't help. The problem is fuel, the boost spikes are a symptom, not the cause. The cause is overfuel which an EGT gauge will show every time, back off the pedal and the EGT's will come back down.

So run (like I think you should on any turbo motor) boost and EGT gauges and you should be able to keep it in one piece ?

theoretically yes is what they're saying but i suspect there might be more to it. other manufacturers who utilise in-piston combustion like the zd30 (there's a big hole in the piston where combustion is meant to take place) have similar problems but nowhere near the same number of failures.

I think they might just have poor quality/design pistons

The other thing is that is if an injector is not atomizing properly it will create hot spots and cracks can occur from these??

alot of variables and in the end if might just be that a number of engineering oversights have come together to cause problems???

love_mud wrote:So run (like I think you should on any turbo motor) boost and EGT gauges and you should be able to keep it in one piece ?

That's my train of thought. I don't have a ZD30 vehicle to test the theory on though. Stories from mates of workmates who've had them go boom say they go really really well just before. Like passing cars uphill with a boat in tow kind of thing.

Yom wrote:theoretically yes is what they're saying but i suspect there might be more to it. other manufacturers who utilise in-piston combustion like the zd30 (there's a big hole in the piston where combustion is meant to take place) have similar problems but nowhere near the same number of failures.

This "in piston combustion" you're talking about is direct injection, it's the most common type and has been for about 30 years (except for light japanese diesels). It takes a lot of extra fuel to soften, melt, then blow a hole in a piston. A bad common rail injector that was hosing fuel would show up on an EGT guage and give a pretty good smoke trail too.

KiwiBacon wrote:

MADSHORT wrote:not all early toyotas had the bearing problem
the problem was there were two bottom end bearing suppliers one suppliers bearings were failing
but toyota had no record of which vehicles had wot bearings
so toyota would not recal them
once these bearings have been replaced there should not be a problem with the engine
cheers
Gordon

So this has nothing at all to do with the research paper available online concerned with solving cavitation in the 7th crank bearing on a 6 cylinder diesel?
Nothing at all?
Not even when one of the authors worked for toyota?

http://www.tytlabs.co.jp/english/review ... aoyama.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So are any manufacturers using bearings with grooves?

Cheers
Muz

KiwiBacon wrote:

love_mud wrote:So run (like I think you should on any turbo motor) boost and EGT gauges and you should be able to keep it in one piece ?

That's my train of thought. I don't have a ZD30 vehicle to test the theory on though. Stories from mates of workmates who've had them go boom say they go really really well just before. Like passing cars uphill with a boat in tow kind of thing.

Yom wrote:theoretically yes is what they're saying but i suspect there might be more to it. other manufacturers who utilise in-piston combustion like the zd30 (there's a big hole in the piston where combustion is meant to take place) have similar problems but nowhere near the same number of failures.

This "in piston combustion" you're talking about is direct injection, it's the most common type and has been for about 30 years (except for light japanese diesels). It takes a lot of extra fuel to soften, melt, then blow a hole in a piston. A bad common rail injector that was hosing fuel would show up on an EGT guage and give a pretty good smoke trail too.

my understanding was that direct injection is fuel being dumped directly into the combustion chamber rather than further up in the inlet tract - as in it refers to the way the fuel is injected rather than the piston design i mentioned.

this was what i was referring to:


plenty of other pictures out there of ZD pistons with obvious hot spot melting points and cracks spreading out from them

Yom wrote:my understanding was that direct injection is fuel being dumped directly into the combustion chamber rather than further up in the inlet tract - as in it refers to the way the fuel is injected rather than the piston design i mentioned.

this was what i was referring to:


plenty of other pictures out there of ZD pistons with obvious hot spot melting points and cracks spreading out from them

There are only two basic types of diesel combustion. Direct injection where the combustion chamber is a bowl in the piston and indirect injection where the combustion chamber is the head. It's only petrol engines which can inject fuel outside the cylinders.

The ZD30 AND YD25 nissan engines are direct injection. The TD25,TD27, TD42 nissan engines are indirect injection.

That sectioned piston you've shown is indeed cracked, but it's not showing signs of being torched by an injector opening too early/late. It is showing some scuffing around the rim which might or might not be due to it being overheated (i.e. overfuelled) and expanding to grab the bore. The cracks don't seem to be a catastrophic failure by themselves.

What's the story with the block photo you've posted?

no idea grabbed it off google lol

Yom wrote:no idea grabbed it off google lol

http://ictehe602.blogspot.com/2008/06/m ... urbo1.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The engine in that link is the VP44 model, not commonrail. Are there any reports of VP pump models grenading or is it a common-rail thing?

The main difference being a single commonrail injector can have a bad day and dump fuel, but on a VP44 pump motor all cylinders get roughly the same dose.

getting even more off topic here but what are the later model 3litre patrol diesels lIke? are they based on the zd30 at all?

KiwiBacon wrote:

Shadow wrote:that and the problem can be fixed, unlike the ZD30 which nissan refuses to acknowledge, and there is no apparent fix other than rebuild(if you can) or replace

The only way a ZD30 can grenade itself is if EGT's get out of control. Running one with a boost gauge you'd spot trouble long before and simply back off until you can find the sensor that's causing it. IMO it's totally manageable and avoidable.

There is a lot of guff on the net about boost controllers etc to stop it, they won't help. The problem is fuel, the boost spikes are a symptom, not the cause. The cause is overfuel which an EGT gauge will show every time, back off the pedal and the EGT's will come back down.

I think you will find that the "boost spike" is not the root cause. There are a few problems that compound into the grenade effect. 1 being the crank case breather, breathing from the intake before the air flow meter, coating the wire in oil therefore over boosting. 2 the EGR valve dumps almost directly back into no.3 cylinder, and mixed with the oil coming back from the crank case breather, carbon builds very rapidly leaning out the cylinder, causing detonation. 4 its a Nissan!!. The easy way to get around this is, block of the EGR valve, remove the intake plenum/intake pipes and clean all the gunk out, fit a catch can to the crank case breather, fit a boost guage to moniter the boost incase it starts spiking and buy a Toyota.