Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Hi all, I have just purchased a commonrail diesel outback Subaru for the wifes shopping trolly and also those dreaded long distance interstate trips.

I am looking at chipping it and have decided to go with a ROO systems chip.

I was also considering getting rid of the particle filter, but it has two sensors screwed into it.
So my question is, if I was to pull it off and cut it open, gut it out and put a straight through bypass pipe inside it would the sensors know the difference??

Aren't there big fines for that in Aussie?

Besides the legalities. Many new diesels take EGR from behind the particulate filter, if you remove the particulate filter you may be clogging up your engine.

Circumventing any emissions system is illegal. I doubt you'd be able to find any good advice on it. Stick with the chip, and maybe a bigger exhaust if possible. Otherwise flog it an get the 6 cylinder petrol.

I was lead to believe particulate filters are like catalitic converters and create back presure, lots of people are having trouble with them around town doing short trips clogs them up, they need to do some hwy miles to heat them up suficiantly to burn the carbon out. Owners manual also states they need to be run longer than 15mins over 80km/hr >2000rpm to acheive this.

I was thinking to somehow still involve the sensors so they are still getting a reading.

Probly is illegal but there is no way of testing it yet unless the cops get emission sensors issued?

What are the laws in NZ like

300WinMag wrote:
Probly is illegal but there is no way of testing it yet unless the cops get emission sensors issued?

Very easy to test:
(1) black smoke where there should be none.
(2) a straight through pipe or hollow sounding pipe where there should be a DPF.

I am sure the performance will ge great even with the DPF. Just use it as an excuse to go for a long drive every so often.

Any Diesel tech's out there care to comment.

300WinMag wrote:What are the laws in NZ like

Non-existant. Only emissions controls are on vehicle imports (i.e. can't import anything lower than euro 4 I think) and enough smoke to annoy other road-users can get you a fine and request to fix your vehicle.

EGR, cat converters etc etc are unregulated. Noise is, but that's targetted at ricers with 1.3 litre engines and 4 inch echo chambers instead of an exhaust.

Considering the importance of the DPF and its programing of its functions in the ECU i would say it probably would barely run without it!!
These cars are alot more advanced than the days of removing cat convertor and the like! Its not as simple as removing it for the sake of it!!
If you bought the car for city driving at low average speeds you ARE going to have problems with the DPF clogging up!!
They really need good drives at 80km/h plus to regenerate the DPF!

And just a tip dont undo any fuel lines( high pressure ones) they have to be replaced everytime they are undone! To replace the fuel lines means pulling out the engine

Im only speaking from truck experience here, but i'd think it'd be a similar setup.
The way i see it is, you have a sensor reading on 1 side of the filter, and a sensor reading on the other. Theyre going to communicate and will tell the ecu the pressure difference across the filter. If the filter starts to get blocked, it will tell you to manually do a burn/drive to a certain condition or something like that.
If it gets too blocked, it will be a trip to the dealer to clear a code and force a burn. So, if the guts of the filter was removed, the sensors would never read enough of a difference across the filter to bring up a fault...... Its purely a emissions device, i cant imagine any performance issues if there was no fault codes, it would just be like normal operation.
I have thought about doing this to a truck we service at work, that has a DPD (diesel particulate diffuser) because its not for road use and this system has caused many breakdowns.
I dont know, someone in the biz surely will pipe up.

I would guess the 2 sensors would read a pressure difference across the DPF at all times the worse it gets then the ECU would carry out a regen!
If there was nothing in the DPF there would be no preesure difference and i would suggest fault codes would be lodged.
There are a few stages of regen with these DPF!
1 happens under certain driving conditions(driver would know it happens)
2 DPF light comes on them must drive to conditions in owners manual(above 2000rpm/70/80km./h
3 DPF light flashes bring to dealer for forced regen
4 If the rest has been ignored replace DPF around $8000 bucks give or take

Because it is a emission related device, removing or gutting it will most likely bring check lights on and prob void warranty.

And as said its illegal.

Steve

This might be of interest:
http://www.subaruoutback.org/forums/att ... advice.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ISUZUROVER wrote:This might be of interest:
http://www.subaruoutback.org/forums/att ... advice.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Its amazing whats out there that shouldnt be!

what i would so is make the engine burn cleaner. eg limit the amount of egr so fuel burn is cleaner and less soot is produced. then DPF shouldn't block up so quickly.
the amount of soot is compounded by aussies crappy fuel. so try and run the best fuel you can get.

The imediate reaction to treat new questions on this sight like a idiot asked them is not apreciated.

I do have extensive experience working on diesels and heavy machinery.(1500hp+)
Gasturbines using ECU's and DECU's. Direct and indirect injection.
Rebuilt turbos, engines and gearboxs. Hydraulics fitting on machines with complex electro hydraulic circuits and several computers that run them.

So do go making any half cocked asumptions.

However I do not have much expierience with the smaller stuff with lots of emissions crap on it.

So some positive feadback would be apreciated.

To those who have contributed positivly thankyou.

I've spoken with a few of my customers about DPF's mainly in auto D40 navaras. A few aftermarket exhuast systems replace the DPF with a new dump pipe. As far as I know they don't get a check engine light because the two sensors will never sense any major differentiation so the vehicle ecu will never register a situation where it needs to do a burn of the DPF.

There is also a product on the market that you can screw into the sensor bung and it is a tiny Euro 5 Cat converter which tricks the sensor which is screwed back into the bung to make it think there is still that minor resistance that a DPF/cat provides. They call it a Check engine light eliminator, mainly used on high tech V8s when they put in aftermarket exhaust systems that pop a CE light when they pull the cat out. It may work in this application as well.

I guess what you could do is pull the plugs on both sensors and go for a drive and see if it throws a CE or DPF light. If it doesn't then I reckon it would be good to go for turfing it. Obviously all at risk of copping a fine from the EPA. I've heard of people doing a lot worse...I dont' think a high class 2.0L CR diesel is going to cause too much pollution anyway!

I distribute Diesel Power Modules from Germany here in Aus. http://www.diesel-power.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

We make a module to suit your vehicle. It is a plug and play harness with user adjustable module. If you want a price or more info PM me. I can guarantee it will produce the same if not better performance at substantially lower cost than any other chip on the market for a straight plug in module. A dyno tune will help to find the best setting but the recommended settings are an excellent start point. We also offer a 30 day money back guarantee so you have nothing to lose.

Thanks mate that is the information I have been looking for. I also read the info in the link provided by ISUZUROVER which was also very helpful.
I will send PM.

dank wrote:I've spoken with a few of my customers about DPF's mainly in auto D40 navaras. A few aftermarket exhuast systems replace the DPF with a new dump pipe. As far as I know they don't get a check engine light because the two sensors will never sense any major differentiation so the vehicle ecu will never register a situation where it needs to do a burn of the DPF.

they don't get check engine light but its tricky to get them to stop doing a regen which can produce clouds of white smoke !
some have had success by packing out the oxygen sensor. others simply rewrite the ecu and delete the regen functions.

There is also a product on the market that you can screw into the sensor bung and it is a tiny Euro 5 Cat converter which tricks the sensor which is screwed back into the bung to make it think there is still that minor resistance that a DPF/cat provides. They call it a Check engine light eliminator, mainly used on high tech V8s when they put in aftermarket exhaust systems that pop a CE light when they pull the cat out. It may work in this application as well.

now that sounds interesting and may be useful for them.

I was talking to a friend who has a Peogot, it was using excessive fuel so he took it to the dealer.
Turns out the PDF was dented and damaged aswell as a bladder.
Cost $3500, I'll be stuffed if I would pay that if I had the option to circumvent the PDF.

dont go and put a 'dumb diesel chip' on a diesel. Not just Roo but any plug in system I would class as dumb.

a) Subaru diesels can have their standard ecu reflashed with new settings to fully map the standard ecu.
b) If that doesnt tickle your fancy, why not use a unichip which can retain a very high amount of tuneability.

The beauty of remapping is the ability to change the dpf settings. You can take it out if you want, and just turn off all dpf related fueling and check engine lights in the tune.
You also have full control over every other engine and gearbox paramater with remapping.

As I said the next best thing is a unichip which wires into the standard ecu. It picks up crank angle sensor, Map sensor, TPS, Watertemp, air temp and so on.
It can then adjust these settings to give a much more tailored tune to suit that particular vehicle, that particular customer, etc....

Where would I get it remaped in Sydney and how much should it cost?

What are the uni chips worth?

300WinMag wrote:Where would I get it remaped in Sydney and how much should it cost?

What are the uni chips worth?

For remapping. Opensource using the tactrix cable is one option you would have to ring around to find out who does it.
Or Autotech engineering 02 9897 1378 at Granville. They do ecutek reflashing and can also do unichip.

They will price you up. If it is more expensive, so be it. Bite the bullet as it will be done once and done properly.
As per any type of pressure/injector plug in chip, in my honest opinion they are garbage. If they were the only option I would consider using them, but they have so many drawbacks and the manufactures of them dont care about anything but pumping out mass volume of them and making $$$$ from it.

Would the re-flash void warranty?

300WinMag wrote:Would the re-flash void warranty?

I found this comment on another thread from europe. I don't know the background. Also warnings on dual-mass flywheels not liking the extra torque.

Euro Tuner on Subaru 2.0 diesel wrote:I don't know where is ecu but I don't think that this motor is good to chiptuning.
That motors have problems with injectors and turbochargers it can suck oil from engine.

the other problem with flashing ecu is that if you take it in to Subaru for servicing they may flash the ecu with an update. then you will need to go get it reflashed $$$$.

Northside 4x4 wrote:dont go and put a 'dumb diesel chip' on a diesel. Not just Roo but any plug in system I would class as dumb.

...blah blah blah

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion

i think a successful 20 year history of this type of tuning method is not bad for a "dumb" module.

You don't think that unichip don't care about anything and mass producing chips to make money. it's called business. Look at Apple, Nokia, Bunnings, GE, Dick Smith etc etc...

I can definitely see the benefits of remapping an ecu or using a computer tunable module for more power in high output and specific applications like racing. Diesel Power are user tunable on the module. This is important for our remote customers here in Australia and they do everything laptop tunable modules do but without the associated and unnecessary addition of full tuning.

The thing is it is not necessary to go to this extreme to unlock the potential of the average persons tow rig. For a lot of people the associated costs and warranty issues of remapping or unichip just make a plug in removable/portable Diesel Module much more attractive! Especially Diesel Power. We are $500 cheaper than the competition on average. Just goes to show how much certain companies have been taking the public for a ride for many years.

Sorry for the hijack 330winmag. Just thought it was worth jumping in for some clarification.

PS Northside4x4 send me some trade pricing on your BT-50 Intercooler upgrades. I have some customers that might be interested. I hope I didn't come across as offensive as thats not my aim, I just felt that your comment was one sided and needed clarification.

dank wrote:

Northside 4x4 wrote:dont go and put a 'dumb diesel chip' on a diesel. Not just Roo but any plug in system I would class as dumb.

...blah blah blah

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion

i think a successful 20 year history of this type of tuning method is not bad for a "dumb" module.

You don't think that unichip don't care about anything and mass producing chips to make money. it's called business. Look at Apple, Nokia, Bunnings, GE, Dick Smith etc etc...

I can definitely see the benefits of remapping an ecu or using a computer tunable module for more power in high output and specific applications like racing. Diesel Power are user tunable on the module. This is important for our remote customers here in Australia and they do everything laptop tunable modules do but without the associated and unnecessary addition of full tuning.

The thing is it is not necessary to go to this extreme to unlock the potential of the average persons tow rig. For a lot of people the associated costs and warranty issues of remapping or unichip just make a plug in removable/portable Diesel Module much more attractive! Especially Diesel Power. We are $500 cheaper than the competition on average. Just goes to show how much certain companies have been taking the public for a ride for many years.

Sorry for the hijack 330winmag. Just thought it was worth jumping in for some clarification.

PS Northside4x4 send me some trade pricing on your BT-50 Intercooler upgrades. I have some customers that might be interested. I hope I didn't come across as offensive as thats not my aim, I just felt that your comment was one sided and needed clarification.

Thats quite alright.

The reason I use the term dumb though is because 99% of chips have 1 input. Rail voltage. Apart from that it has no idea how fast the engine is going, how hot its running, how much load is on the engine etc...

The reflashing is invisible to dealers, and if it is flashed over the shop will normally place the tune back in there for you free of charge.
I see this as the future of diesel tuning as nothing else out there can provide such fine tuning ability, and ability of the ecu to learn as you drive.

You are right in saying the extra cost of a unichip is not appealing to everybody. The chip itself is cheaper than almost any other plug in brand, the extra cost mainly comes from dyno time in tuning each individual vehicle for its intended use and correctly setting up safety maps that utilize water/air/egt (any or all) to back the fueling down.

So the real benefits arent to race cars or people looking for the most power etc.. it is having the ability to adjust alot of parameters meaning you can target economy and power while keeping the safety and reliability through multiple tuning strategies, not just 1 strategy.

I will shoot through some trade prices for you on monday.

Northside have you ever looked into converting a TD42 to Common Rail?

300WinMag wrote:Northside have you ever looked into converting a TD42 to Common Rail?

First you would need to convert one to direct injection. Which has been discussed recently, but is a supreme effort in itself.

300WinMag wrote:Northside have you ever looked into converting a TD42 to Common Rail?

Ive always dreamed about it thats for sure. The cost would be extremely prohibitive though.

Parts List.
Custom 4V OHC head with center injection point.
Custom cam drive system
Custom Pistons to incorporate Combustion chamber
6x Solenoid or Piezo injectors
Fuel pressure sensor
CR Pump with custom drive setup
CR fuel Manifold
Custom fuel lines
Aftermarket ecu to run the whole thing
As a rough guide anyway.

Would be almost if not as expensive as putting a duramax in it after doing some rough sums. The head and cam setup alone would blow out to well over $10K.