Outer Limits 4x4 Board

I have a 07 Hilux here that looks like it has cracked number 2 piston (not confirmed 100%, head isn't off yet). Has anyone seen this before on the 1KD-FTV motor?

Yes, seen it a few times.

Only on cars with diesel chips wound up well past were they should be though.

Any mod list on the car?

Yes it has Steinbauer and Beaudesert exhaust. The Steinbauer is just on the base setting. It gave up the ghost fully loaded towing a trailer with 2 quads in on the way to Bourke...it was an expensive tilt tray ride back home.

Standard setting is great if you live in europe with -20deg air temp, excellent quality fuel, never put more than a brick in the back and drive at the rated 30mph speed limit.

-70% is generally what I run as a safe level for any car with a Steinbauer (when I used to sell them).\

Did it get tuned on a dyno?

Nah never tuned on the dyno. It has had injector problems and it took ages to get Toyota to agree to put another set of injectors in it, so I'm wondering if the constant diesel knock before the injectors were replaced would have contributed to its early demise?

chunks wrote:Nah never tuned on the dyno. It has had injector problems and it took ages to get Toyota to agree to put another set of injectors in it, so I'm wondering if the constant diesel knock before the injectors were replaced would have contributed to its early demise?

I would be jumping on that quick smart. An injector problem will 100% cause these problems.

But, if it had a SB chip in it which alters injection closing point, and toyota know about it. You have buckleys of winning the case.

Why did it take so long for them to change it? Ie, what was their excuse?

I'm surprised we don't see more melted pistons with aftermarket diesel chips and tuning boxes.

Northside 4x4 wrote:

chunks wrote:Nah never tuned on the dyno. It has had injector problems and it took ages to get Toyota to agree to put another set of injectors in it, so I'm wondering if the constant diesel knock before the injectors were replaced would have contributed to its early demise?

I would be jumping on that quick smart. An injector problem will 100% cause these problems.

But, if it had a SB chip in it which alters injection closing point, and toyota know about it. You have buckleys of winning the case.

Why did it take so long for them to change it? Ie, what was their excuse?

Their excuse was that the injectors were still operating within "factory specs". I'll pull the head off tomorrow and see what's going on.

KiwiBacon wrote:I'm surprised we don't see more melted pistons with aftermarket diesel chips and tuning boxes.

I agree, I don't think I would fit one to my own vehicle as I can't see how they can safely increase fuel supply without any egt monitoring.

chunks wrote:

KiwiBacon wrote:I'm surprised we don't see more melted pistons with aftermarket diesel chips and tuning boxes.

I agree, I don't think I would fit one to my own vehicle as I can't see how they can safely increase fuel supply without any egt monitoring.

Yep, there's only one thing worse than chip with no EGT gauge. That's an EGT gauge with a probe that's too short and giving false readings.

Fitting a chip is often a dangerous endeavour on any diesel for basically one reason.

No thought has gone into supplying more air to burn the fuel that is there let alone additional fuel!
That is the reason I concentrate so hard on intercooler upgrades rather than selling chips with my performance packages.

If you can keep the AFR close to factory levels, EGT will not rise. Negating the need for EGT sensors.

Injection timing plays a huge role in egt control also. An extra 3-4deg of timing can make up to 70deg difference in egt under full load.

Factory cars are tuned with two parameters in mind. Durability and Emissions.
Keep you AFR close to the factory level and Durability will stay the same.
Advancing the timing will cause a rise in NoX emissions, meaning you wont comply with current standards. But, it will provide more torque and help combust the fuel more completely resulting in further egt drops.

Northside 4x4 wrote:Injection timing plays a huge role in egt control also. An extra 3-4deg of timing can make up to 70deg difference in egt under full load.

Yes advancing timing does drop EGT, but it actually increases the temperatures inside the cylinder. You are probably still safe running 750C with advanced injection timing (I do, my engine survives), but it's actually a hotter tune and harder on the pistons than running the same measured 750C with more retarded timing.

Number 2 piston has a dirty big crack all the way across the top of it. Number 1 piston has a crack developing in it.

Nasty on cracked piston! It is worth having some data aquisition/display gear when running any sort of non standard boost or fueling or timing (or combos of).

I hope Toyota doesnt know of the chip.

As far as timing is concerned; some points on timing advance:

* Allows burn to be more complete earlier in power stroke in order that more work is potentially done during power stroke
* additional heat loss (working against itself on compression stroke moreso) is only partially compensated for by increased work on power stroke, so the benefit in % is less than the extra load on engine in %
* Increases overall efficiency (in some cases)
* Increases peak cylinder pressure and temp - more heat lost in combustion chamber walls, more load on bearings
* reduces energy available for turbocharging

Conversely, tests have been performed (aka Borg Warner) where they retard timing to reduce Nox then raise boost levels to bring efficiency back. Overall efficiency was improved and Peak cylinder pressures (that increase NOx production) reduced despite significant increases in peak torque.

That is impressive

Peak cylinder pressure isnt generally increased with timing, When peak occurs plays a more important role.
If your peak goes up it generally means your timing is to fast, which will results in no power gain through Delta N being higher than Delta P or equivelant.
As with any timing tuning, once you get past diminishing returns with it, its time to pull the plug

If you make 5kw with 1degree, then 5kw with another degee then 3kw with 1 more... Obviously your optimum point is 2degrees advanced. Which is about average for current CRD's at full throttle/load, most of them will take double that or tripple at cruise though before hitting diminishing return rates.
1HD-FTE take between 4 and 7degrees before diminishing returns
ZD30 will take 2-3deg
YD25 will take around 4-5deg
1KZ/D4D around 5deg

All of these represent gains in the vicinity of 10-15kw atw with no additional fuel or boost.

Factory engines are very confined by emissions standards regarding cylinder temp and NoX emissions. They would rather the temp be 690deg for 5ms rather than 710deg for 3ms due to nox emissions.
Which would put more demand on the cooling system? Lower heat for longer or higher heat for a shorter period of time? My view on it is that there is just about no change to internal temps with timing when it is right.

NoX is only really attributed to heat also, not so much pressure. Above 700deg and NoX will increase dramatically.

Also, with the testing. Would like to see the results of the increased boost with timing at the correct level. It would undoubtedly be higher again than reduced timing levels (without taking NoX into the equation)

Sure more heat out the exhaust means more drive onto the turbo, but the engergy is being wasted that could have otherwise been put into driving the crank to increase torque. Yes NoX will be higher but also engine efficiency and power will be up to.

Wasting energy to drive the turbine means more energy to drive the compressor feeding the engine, So the denser charge in the cylinder, the more energy you are wasting with slow timing...

CustomTurbos wrote:Nasty on cracked piston! It is worth having some data aquisition/display gear when running any sort of non standard boost or fueling or timing (or combos of).

I hope Toyota doesnt know of the chip.

As far as timing is concerned; some points on timing advance:

* Allows burn to be more complete earlier in power stroke in order that more work is potentially done during power stroke
* additional heat loss (working against itself on compression stroke moreso) is only partially compensated for by increased work on power stroke, so the benefit in % is less than the extra load on engine in %
* Increases overall efficiency (in some cases)
* Increases peak cylinder pressure and temp - more heat lost in combustion chamber walls, more load on bearings
* reduces energy available for turbocharging

Conversely, tests have been performed (aka Borg Warner) where they retard timing to reduce Nox then raise boost levels to bring efficiency back. Overall efficiency was improved and Peak cylinder pressures (that increase NOx production) reduced despite significant increases in peak torque.

That is impressive

Or try the miller cycle. Grind the cam for late closing of the inlet valve to reduce your compression ratio, but keep the same expansion ratio. Use the turbochargers in the same way as above but you can keep timing closer to optimal while keeping cylinder pressures and temperatures lower than the same power using conventional compression.

A powerstroke owner from the US tells me retarding the timing and cranking the boost is the only way they can make big power and keep their engines bottom end together.

Advancing timing isnt always bad, just that there are things to consider and it is a case by case basis.

Your point of diminishing returns on advance is what I was referring to and it is interesting to see your gains in kW without fuel - I like it. Those gains though may be nice and safe if working not too far from factory torque/power levels. Trying the same technique at double factory fuel levels may indeed give you the increased efficiency gains your searching for but also give you 1/4 (or worse) the service life of your big ends. And lots of NOx (not that I am that interested in the NOx aspect at this point).

The Borg Warner article is posted online in the compound turbo section. It is quite informative and at least to me, interesting reading. I am referring to peak in cylinder temps and pressures that form NOx, not exhaust manifold temps. In a retarded state, the BW system very likely with retarded timing had higher EGT's but lower in cylinder peak temp and pressure, though the leaner micture may also have caused it to have lower EGT's as well - I cant remember if that was mentioned. There were two main reasons BW did the tests. One was NOx and the other was they were trying to get more power out of the test engine without increasing the mechanical stress, so they played with timing and boost to see if they could achieve it and they did, with much lower emmisions.

I wasnt suggesting that it is a great idea to retard timing to increase wasted heat just to drive the turbo; though most ecu programs are written to momentarily do just that in order to spool the turbo quicker before returning to a more advanced state.

At the same fuel delivery, same boost pressure, all other things equal, increasing the advance must always increase the peak cylinder pressure, not just change where it happens in the cycle.

I am fitting a ChipIt chip to my FTE. I am sincerely hoping it is a rebadged "Unichip". Because I want the rpm and load mapped timing control that the Unichip has (that is an assumption there - that partial load timing can be adjusted). Knowing that is available on the Unichip but not being able to have anyone here in Perth tune one is the reason for not going Unichip. Will see how good it is anyway; I'll be there during the tune in the back seat

Northside 4x4 wrote:Peak cylinder pressure isnt generally increased with timing, When peak occurs plays a more important role.
If your peak goes up it generally means your timing is to fast, which will results in no power gain through Delta N being higher than Delta P or equivelant.
As with any timing tuning, once you get past diminishing returns with it, its time to pull the plug

If you make 5kw with 1degree, then 5kw with another degee then 3kw with 1 more... Obviously your optimum point is 2degrees advanced. Which is about average for current CRD's at full throttle/load, most of them will take double that or tripple at cruise though before hitting diminishing return rates.
1HD-FTE take between 4 and 7degrees before diminishing returns
ZD30 will take 2-3deg
YD25 will take around 4-5deg
1KZ/D4D around 5deg

All of these represent gains in the vicinity of 10-15kw atw with no additional fuel or boost.

Factory engines are very confined by emissions standards regarding cylinder temp and NoX emissions. They would rather the temp be 690deg for 5ms rather than 710deg for 3ms due to nox emissions.
Which would put more demand on the cooling system? Lower heat for longer or higher heat for a shorter period of time? My view on it is that there is just about no change to internal temps with timing when it is right.

NoX is only really attributed to heat also, not so much pressure. Above 700deg and NoX will increase dramatically.

Also, with the testing. Would like to see the results of the increased boost with timing at the correct level. It would undoubtedly be higher again than reduced timing levels (without taking NoX into the equation)

Sure more heat out the exhaust means more drive onto the turbo, but the engergy is being wasted that could have otherwise been put into driving the crank to increase torque. Yes NoX will be higher but also engine efficiency and power will be up to.

Wasting energy to drive the turbine means more energy to drive the compressor feeding the engine, So the denser charge in the cylinder, the more energy you are wasting with slow timing...

Thats a great idea; is there an OEM implementation of that yet? (in a diesel). I wonder when we will see compound vnt (with bypass valves etc) and BMW like fully variable cam timing..... And running between HCCI and Diesel...... and variable compression..... lol

[/quote]

Or try the miller cycle. Grind the cam for late closing of the inlet valve to reduce your compression ratio, but keep the same expansion ratio. Use the turbochargers in the same way as above but you can keep timing closer to optimal while keeping cylinder pressures and temperatures lower than the same power using conventional compression.

You are right Graeme, around factory levels it is much easier to set the timing.

With much higher boost you need less timing. As the fuel and air is packed in much closer the cylinder pressure climbs much more rapidly.
Same with more fuel, the timing requirements are reduced again.

I could post up a timing map for a 1hdfte for you if are able to set it with the chip you have ordered? Im not sure how their particular chip works (it wont be a unichip btw)
But im guessing its just a spillvalve overide? Only time will tell if you can adjust the timing with it, if you can Im happy to give who ever is tuning an ignition map to work with that will be within 10% of being perfect at all load and rpm points.

How is the partial throttle timing mapped with the chip also?

I havent been given the wiring harness to wire in yet, but I was told it needed to connect to tps.....

Appreciate the timing map, I will ask a few more questions from ChipIt. I am kind of desperate to have some custom programmability. The tune will be done on a DD dyno too.

Northside 4x4 wrote:You are right Graeme, around factory levels it is much easier to set the timing.

With much higher boost you need less timing. As the fuel and air is packed in much closer the cylinder pressure climbs much more rapidly.
Same with more fuel, the timing requirements are reduced again.

I could post up a timing map for a 1hdfte for you if are able to set it with the chip you have ordered? Im not sure how their particular chip works (it wont be a unichip btw)
But im guessing its just a spillvalve overide? Only time will tell if you can adjust the timing with it, if you can Im happy to give who ever is tuning an ignition map to work with that will be within 10% of being perfect at all load and rpm points.

How is the partial throttle timing mapped with the chip also?

CustomTurbos wrote:I havent been given the wiring harness to wire in yet, but I was told it needed to connect to tps.....

Appreciate the timing map, I will ask a few more questions from ChipIt. I am kind of desperate to have some custom programmability. The tune will be done on a DD dyno too.

Northside 4x4 wrote:You are right Graeme, around factory levels it is much easier to set the timing.

With much higher boost you need less timing. As the fuel and air is packed in much closer the cylinder pressure climbs much more rapidly.
Same with more fuel, the timing requirements are reduced again.

I could post up a timing map for a 1hdfte for you if are able to set it with the chip you have ordered? Im not sure how their particular chip works (it wont be a unichip btw)
But im guessing its just a spillvalve overide? Only time will tell if you can adjust the timing with it, if you can Im happy to give who ever is tuning an ignition map to work with that will be within 10% of being perfect at all load and rpm points.

How is the partial throttle timing mapped with the chip also?

No worries, ill hold any remarks on the chip until you get your hands on it and can have a good look through the software etc...

OK, I am going Unichip. Since ChipIt is fuel only, thats no good to me. Honestly with all thjeir marketing I thought maybe they were good. Reality is they are no different to other "semi clever" fuel only chips.

Need to try and finmd a way to stop ECU advancing timing when it thinks it has EGR..... I wonder if simply pulling the controlling solenoids off and resetting ecu is enough to achieve that.... No codes thrown and they arent on now.

Sorry this has been so OT, I have been desperate for something to program on my FTE.... KLooks like a Unichip and a ROM reflash on the pump and I'll have as hot pistons as I like ;-)

Cheers

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No worries, ill hold any remarks on the chip until you get your hands on it and can have a good look through the software etc...[/quote]

Looking forward to seeing the results Custom

Will be good to have unichip evaluated by a 3rd party that is not a distributor or reseller of the product.