Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Hi all, just picked up a 92 Sierra wide track soft top.. bog stock, and slightly thrashed.

the springs are all pretty stuffed, so I'll be looking at doing some suspension mods at the same time as giving it a fix up.

This car will be a daily driver, but i'm not overly worried about the on road handling

It seems from what I've read that RUF is the way to go, but I don't really have the time or inclination to be moving the shock mounts / bump stops and steering box etc.

does the 're drilling the rear hanger hole 22mm back and 10mm up' trick work on the WT models? I'd be up for moving te rear mounts if that wont work, but the full RUF would have the car off the road for too long.
The the steering box arm already seems pretty close to the drag link? Is it possible to re drill the locating hole in the plates on the diff, to re-centre the diff?

from what I've read 31's really kill the highway performance, what's the availability of different ratio centres like? price? or is 30's a better option?

Does removing the front sway bar have much effect on off road performance on a stock rig?

I also read that to fit Cromo CV's you need a rear locker??? what's the go with that? are axle lengths the same front and rear?
is it a different spline? what's the go?

I'ts also up for some shockies, will the commodore / hiace shockies fit a stocker? can't see why not, as nobody mentions modifying the bump-stops when fitting these?


Thanks for your help guys.

Seems outers is dead??? oh well.

Fairly sure the hiace shocks won't fit, I just tried to fit mine in and they are too long to go in with the car sitting in the driveway.

I have SPOA but I was using the two sets of spring plates, the lower one to mount the shocks so in the standard position if that makes sense. I have OME +40mm springs but with a leaf out. So the springs sit pretty much as flat as the sagged standards.

I was looking forward to an easy fit. Not so easy. I will post the shock length comparison photos as soon as I can.

I have VS wagon rears on the front and I had to move the shock mount to the bottom of the diff housing to give a bit of up travel. Still using the standard top mount with some percussive adjustment.

I also run Ruf with the diff 30mm forward, makes a huge difference in ride. I made some dodgy 75mm missing links but am about to move the shackle mounts as it is a trifle wobbly. Flex is ridiculous though. Looking at 25-30 mm more forward on the mounts and 95mm centre to centre shackles.

The Cro-Molys are 26 spline so they need a rear centre, the front is 22. Locked front makes an enormous difference in capability and an equally big difference in turning effort and circumference.
Redrilling the holes will move the diff some.

Go the full ruf.

31"s, I have a 12A rotary in mine and I had 235/75, the 31's slowed it down heaps, Hate to think what it would have done with a 13oo.

Good luck with the mods, hope my totally different experience helps some.
Chris.

cheers for that... does the SPOA make the steering box location a non issue?

looking at it in the driveway, there is only about 10mm between the steering box arm and the drag link, but most people who do RUF dont mention mooving the steering box?

in QLD so im pretty sure SPOA is out...

found some 4.57 R&P gears in the states, which look like they would be the go for highway use with 31's... only $260 each, not sure how low range would go though...

i'll end up dual locking it, so im not after monster flex, just dont want it to follow the front axle too much.

this is the answer to all your sus questions thanks to Auszookers.

The main purpose of this is to show one possible way to do a suspension lift on a sierra. All problems that came up in my lift will be discussed as well as prices. I do not claim this is the only way or even the best way to do it but it turned out exceptionally well for the amount of money that has been spent.

Parts needed:

2inch Front OME Springs - $88.50ea at ARB

2inch Rear OME Springs - $105.50ea at ARB

Full set of poly bushes - $100 (cashie) at Dobinson Springs

Full set of U-Bolts, Nuts and Spring Washers - Total $65 Boltmaster

Rubber Grease - already had

Rear Commodore Wagon Shocks Gabriel 81340 - $30ea

Front Hiace Shocks Gabriel 81147 - $30ea

Total Cost of Lift - $673

Method of Lift:

First of all you need to make sure you have the car on a level ground to make it easier and safer. Jack the front diff up and remove one wheel. (Note: only do one side at a time or further complications take place) supporting the diff with both the jack and a chassis stand, remove shock to give more working space. (Also allows the spring to be removed easier). Loosen the nuts off the bottom of the U-Bolts and remove the nuts from the shackle pins and the rear chassis mount. Using a wrecking bar try and pry the shackle pins out of the spring, do the same thing with the rear mount. Once all the pins are out, completely remove the nuts under the srping plate and drop the spring out of the way.

If you have not already, remove the shackle from the stock or old springs. Personally I decided these could do with a clean up so I just ran them over with the bench grinder (steel wire wheel).

Insert the bushes into new spring. This may be easy depending on the bushes you are trying to use but if you are using the OME springs and Dobinson bushes, tight is an understatement. With plenty of rubber grease both inside the spring eye and all over the bush, hole it roughly in place and put into the vice. Slowly bring the vice together holding the bush firmly into place. It may slip out of place but keep trying, eventually it will go in. Be careful not to tear the side of the bush with a metal vice jaw.

Slide the spring under the diff but on top of the spring plate, and sink the locating pin into the designated hole. (The diff may need to be slightly lowered to do the next step, however with force you can do it without lowering it.) While making sure the locating pin does not come out of the spring plate, push the spring back until you can push the rear pin through the chassis mount and into the bushes, and out the other side. While maintaining the same amount of forcefeed the shackle's top pin through the chassis mount and through the front eye of the spring. Line up the U-bolts and do these up first. Once they are tight do all of the pins (shackle and rear chassis mount) up tight. Compress the new shock down to the needed length and simply insert the top pin through the hole, using all nescessary bushes. Do the top nut up tight, then push the bottom mount in and do this up to. Put the wheel back on and that is one side of the front done.

The method is the same for both of the front springs. Only do one side at a time or else the diff can move. When the diff moves it makes it difficult, but not impossible, to return everything to its original location. Also because i did undo both sides at first the drive shaft came out and landed in the grass which meant the tail shaft had to be removed, push the spline back in and do the shaft back up. A lot of mucking around and you do not gain anything from it.

The rear of the vehicle is a lot easier. You have more experience but more importantly there is a lot less components around the back wheels.

Again make sure you have the diff well supported on chassis stands and the jack and remove one wheel, to do one side. Undo everything in the same order. The method is exactly the same as the front. (NOTE: Because of the location of the bottom mount, the shock fits in between the diff and the brake lines. However my brake lines had enough stretch in them that it was possible to simple push, with a fair amount of force, them off the mount and pull them up towards the floor of the car to get them out.)

Back shocks are different as they are an eye to eye configuration and the bottom mount should be done first to stop the brake lines from effecting you putting them in place.

Once everything is back into place and it has all been checked that it is tight, go for a short drive to let the springs settle and then make sure every nut and bolt you touched has been checked again to check it is tight and will not fall off.

so you think a standard 2 inch lift in the front would be the go?

that set up is a very basic proven cheap set up that works. I would loose one leaf out of every pack and I would trim about 25mm off both ends of the load leafs on the passanger side spring packs (front and rear) and the rear of the drivers side. Reason to leave the driver side is the very well known suzuki lean caused by the battery, steering box, driver and spare tire all being on the same side.

I would re-drill the spring purch's on both diffs to move then out a extra 20/30 mm. Its free stability.

Mate honestly all of your questions can be answered with a few basic searchs, These are all very very very commonly asked questions.

If you are going to run anything bigger then 29s on the stock 1.3 your going to have issues keeping highways speed on stock gearing. 30s are ok but you will struggle keeping 110 on any hills. But for off road I wouldnt run anything other then 31s, if you want the simple gearing fix just get your self transfer gears. 6.5 gears are great but most people think they are too low for 31s I loved mine. with the aussy dollar at $1.05 get it from the stated Lowrange http://www.lowrangeoffroad.com/index.ph ... gears.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . Messing with diff gears will also help but the transfer is a lot easier and give you a much lower low.

As for the Cromos, I drove the life out of my sierra for a few years on 31s and 33s and never broke a CV but my mate that had almost the exact set up would brake one a month.
But with how cheap they are I would get them now a days.http://www.lowrangeoffroad.com/index.ph ... axles.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
You need to run a rear diff because of the spline count. Most people take advantage of the stronger axils and the fact that they already have the diff out to put some form of locker in at this time but you dont have to.

Thanks dave, most of these questions CAME from what i had read after doing searches...lol, i realise its pertty basic... learning as i search, but you have to know what to search for.

seems like the 6.5's would put rpm at 5500 in 5th at 100kph on 31's? that sound right to you? it is my only car....

I was thinking of either the 4.9's and keeping the 3.7 diff gears, which would give 4400rpm at 100

or 4.19's and possibly getting the 4.3diff gears out of a Grand Vitara 3spd auto, which would keep rpm at 3300 at 100kph but give a 65:1 crawler ratio... not sure on availibility of these in Aus though. (or if they even fit???)

I did find the answer to the chromo Q by searching though... thanks for your help here for $280 they are a must have!!! hell chromo axles and cv's for the GQ were $6000!

Cant find an answer on the steering box question though... there is only 10-20mm between the steering arm and the drag link at the moment, so i can't see how i could move the diff? Perhaps i only had a 'man's' look...lol

so you think with the susp mods you outlined, it would fix the tendancy for the body to follow the front axle? or need RUF for that?

By 'load leaves' do you mean the 2nd leaf in the pack, or the bottom 'overrider'

Mate honestly I have been around probably 10 or 12 Sierra over the last 5 years and none of them were the same with how they were best set up. Every one of them had good and bad. You being in Qld you have a few limitaions.
trim the override leaf. ( most people dont know what leaf is what and think that is the load leaf ) I would normaly loose the middle of 5 leafs or the 2nd from bottom if they have 4.
The RUF can be done 20 different ways and yes it makes the entire suspension work so much better. The best way I found to do the RUF is to get a few 1mm cutting disc and cut off the rear spring hanger off the chassis and move it back 25 mm and weld it back on (be sure you get some one that actually knows how to weld for this as it is a load bearing part). You will need to run 2" chackles for this.
Get a one new set of rear 2" lifted springs and loose the middle leaf. Then use the new springs in the front. take your rears out and take them apart and replace one of the leafs with the one you took out of the new set. This will add a little extra lift to your old spring pack. The reason I say keep you old rears is because new rear springs on the back of a sierra will take for ever to start flexing and with putting 2" shackles on it you really don't need to lift the rear because even though your putting 2" springs in the front they are going to sit fairly flat after you have modified them.
As my rigs have always been weekenders I also open up and modified the captives but I wouldn't recommend it on a daily.
As for your tie rod and draglink, I had a RUF (as described above) with my spring perch's re-drilled 15mm and they never touched. Mine was also SPOA so those angles were even worse.

Something you will learn is the rear end of a SWB regarding flex will NEVER be great unless your wanting to spend $$$ on drop outs and modified bump stops but it being a little stiff will make the front work harder. Moving your upper shocky mounts inboard does help a little for travel but its not a HUGE difference. It moreso lets you run a longer shock. On mates rig moving the shocks inboard in only gave him about 20mm more travel.

With replacing your springs you should do the bushing. If your wanting more flex stick to rubbor but if you want it to be a little tighter and MUCH better on road go with Poly.

I am sure a few of the other guys will churp up and tell you 10 other ways. The trueth is there is 100s of ways to set these things up. Best thing to do is get your self a few old sets of leafs and one new set and mess around with the packs. just remember to always keep one extra leaf in your drivers front spring.

The 6.5 are a little low for on road with 3.9diffs and 31s. We would put 3.7diffs and they would be fairly good. A lot of people have gone with the 4.1 transfer gears but honestly I fell in love with my 6.5s the very first time I took them out for a hard run on the rocks and they give you unbelievable control.

here is the way i did my ruf
http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/viewtopic ... n&start=60" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
just fo down the page a little bit and there are some pics

In addition to what Dave said with differences that come with each persons setup.

My RUF is a 2" pack with an inbred front and rear mix pack. The rear mount stayed where it was the front came forward 50-60mm, this moved my diff forward 60mm and nothing touches anywhere. So there is a bit of room to work with.

Agreed, 3.9's with 6.5's would be too low on road on 31's.
My 5.14's with 3.9 diffs are bang on awesome on and of road with 31's. I have 6.5's but they wont go in until some bigger tyres are on.


with chromo's you need 26spline side gears with or without some form of locker. my locked front on 31's with gearing had standard CVs snap every trip so I definitely rate chromo's.

Some basic advice.

DON'T run 31's without gearing its a waste of time and its frustrating.
DON'T run a suspension lift and body lift to fit 31's its not necessary, but seems word got around that it is.

3.7 diffs with 6.5s and 31s on my car puts the revs at 3600 at 100kph which is virtually standard. mine now is 3400rpm at 100kph
and it wont pull 5th gear.

Think I'll go for the 5.14's picked up some 30/9.5/15's at the swap meet, so ill be using those till i can afford some Silverstone MT-117's in 31/10/15's.

still have no idea how people are moving there diffs foward... my finger 'just' fits between the draglink and tie rod... my front leaves sit perfectly flat though??

90Mav wrote:Think I'll go for the 5.14's picked up some 30/9.5/15's at the swap meet, so ill be using those till i can afford some Silverstone MT-117's in 31/10/15's.

still have no idea how people are moving there diffs foward... my finger 'just' fits between the draglink and tie rod... my front leaves sit perfectly flat though??
]

ask people who have daily driven with 6.5s not people who think they know what 6.5s are like.

6.5s work well with 31s, i have worn out 2 sets of 31s daily driving and touring using 6.5 trans gears.

6.5s are the cheapest gears you can buy.

6.5s have a lifetime replacement warranty. the others have either no warranty or a limited warranty.

Hmmm had no idea about the warrenty thing... i was going for the 5.14 for a better low range spread. the 6.5's just seemed a bit too low.

the 6.5's will put low 5th where low 2nd used to be compared to the 5.14's which will put low 4th where low 2nd used to be.
I want to be able to carry a little speed into stuff, as it will be awhile before i can afford lockers.

anyone have opinions on the matter.. im not worried about 2% diffrence in high range.

Go get a set of 2" shackles and put them on the front then do you finger gap test again and you will see that gap in your picture will become about twice that size. something else to remember is that gap will never change while driving (as in it will never get closer then its closes setting at idle) so you can set it up to clearance by only a few mm. Mine was only clearing by 3 mm when driving strait ahead. Once set up the only reason why they would touch is because you have bent a spring or your tie rod.

Talking about tie rods and drag links be sure to beef them up or YOU WILL bend them like a banana. Either sleeve them or simply weld a small piece of angle iron the length of the bar. You will kick your self later if you don't.

Just so you know SupaZuke and I never agree.... But I will back him up or he has already backed what I said up some how... Do your self the favor and get 6.5s. I have driven plenty of stockos, 5.14s, 1Lt transfer abortions, 6.5s and I have even driven one rig with a set of 8.1s. The 6.5s are hands down the best bang for buck. Supazuke forgot to mention that he lives on Elcho Island (google that) and you will realize he is in the middle of no where. He has to rely on his rig 200% because a brake down for him could easily end in death. A trip to the local super market is a 9+ hour trip each way. For him the warranty isn't the issue he needs something that will not let him down.

Something else that no one has said anything about yet is if you are going to put ANY gearing in your transfer you will need to re-inforce your case and strengthen you passenger side transfer mount. There are a number of different options for both of them. I run a rocktoy ring and a custom mount with a grade 8 bolt that goes all the way through. Some people opt for a cradle but for me it was a little over kill. If you don't do this the first time you pop the clutch on a climb you will brake you passenger side transfer mount and after you do that about 5 times or a few months down the track you will split your case open.


Ohh and please dear god for all good things in Suzuki loose the front sway bar.

You will learn the way for the Suzuki in time....

AArrrggghhhhh... i had just decided to go for the 5.14's...lol

made this to help.



I dont really like the idea that there will be no low range gear as high as low 2nd is stock.... When i took the rig out the other day i spend quite a bit of time in low 2nd I'm thinking im going to spend half my time in low 4th-5th and the other half in high range.... And i cant really see low 1st on the 6.5's being any use at all untill i have dual lockers...

The sway bar will definatley go before I hit the tracks again!

Need to swap the rego into my name still though, and the speedo drive (not the cable) is stuffed, so i was going to do the transfer gears then get a RWC, then start pulling bits off...lol

Find your self a 1L transfer to put in untill you get your 31s. When you put your 31s in put the 6.5s. Honestly 3.9 diffs with 6.5s and 31s are the perfect mix.

There are a few hundred zook owners in your area and the Brizvagas area and i am a sure a few of them have 6.5s I would suggest you ask to go for a drive so instead of making graphs of what youe read and think they will do you can actualy feel them your self.

But here is the beauty of this entire thing..... Its your car you are the one that has to drive it. Make it how you want it.