Outer Limits 4x4 Board

1. The old left foot brake to lock up an LSD diff works great in the rear, but is it too much stress on cvs for the front? I have LSD centre in my lux front running 33's and broke a CV while left foot braking on an obstacle. The wheels where pointing virtually straight. With the grip of the rock AND the brakes on, is it just too much for my little truck or do you think the CV was farked previously and just gave out?



2. Rear weight for grip... I have an ally tray And it really struggles for grip in the rear due to lack of weight.. At what point does adding weight for grip become disadvantageous? Of course you could build a solid as fark 500kg tray and hardly slip a tyre but you'd get stuck ALOT. And all the trucks that a kicking ass in comps atm are light weight..

The tray I am building soon and the LSD question is just out of curiosity.. So thanks in advance gurus!!

luxes have always had bad cv's problems, especialy the oldshape.
the front diffs are that small, up till 89 were a decent sized front diff, later ones went, tiny..
then every one puts 33 and 35 and wonders why they snap, because they were undersize from the start..
and then they wack a turbo, or throw a v6 in and wonder why the cv's break.........

i would find it hard to believe the left foot trick would cause a cv to break.
it would have gone anyway.

i recently pulled my cv's out last year, tiny cracks where the ball sits, then the overing.. obviously degreased them and fresh grease..
it was a saturday and install locktup heavy duty axle kit and no time to get the new cv's.

driven it heaps in 4wd, and still yet to snap the cv clean off, where the cracks are.

Baja Burley wrote:1. The old left foot brake to lock up an LSD diff works great in the rear, but is it too much stress on cvs for the front? I have LSD centre in my lux front running 33's and broke a CV while left foot braking on an obstacle. The wheels where pointing virtually straight. With the grip of the rock AND the brakes on, is it just too much for my little truck or do you think the CV was farked previously and just gave out?



2. Rear weight for grip... I have an ally tray And it really struggles for grip in the rear due to lack of weight.. At what point does adding weight for grip become disadvantageous? Of course you could build a solid as fark 500kg tray and hardly slip a tyre but you'd get stuck ALOT. And all the trucks that a kicking ass in comps atm are light weight..

The tray I am building soon and the LSD question is just out of curiosity.. So thanks in advance gurus!!

Did you tighten up LSD? A LSD shouldn't have broken the cv but was it spinning fast when it broke ?

Weight on rear isn't going to help you a lot, it can cause more disadvantages. Look at diff locks, more wheel travel or better Tyres.

Not sure what the comment is based on by cruzamad, all solid axle hilux's had same sized diff front+ rear from early lux to 96 and 96 on it was same in rear (but ifs front diff)
They wernt that small but more in proportion to a size of truck keeping in mind they ran something like 29-30" Tyres from factory.

But if cv breakages are a problem look at getting cro-mo ones, then you shouldn't have any more problems.

Brad

The number of hilux's i see fawking about on obstacles and getting the "hilux hop" because they're just too light is amazing. Then my heavy ass cruiser and a any number of heavy ass fullsize trucks walk it in.

A prime example is beer oclock hill at the springs. have a look at the honour board and it's chockas with fullsize trucks. A couple of hiluxes but our "heavy" trucks walk it up and the hilux's and zooks are piss farting about wheelspinning everywhere.

Sure weight becomes an issue after a while and in some circumstances, but weight means traction.

is it because the suspension is not set up right that they are bouncing and there for breaking cv

it is not the lite wieght that causes the hopping. it is the fact that they are designed to carry a load so the leaves were built for that, hence no travel unloaded. Yes weight equals traction, but a light rig dosent need as much traction to make the same climb. Traction also busts stuff. So in short wieght Busts stuff.

Great tech here. Thanks for the replies. To talk more about the tray and weight in the rear, I have just finished knocking up a 3/4eliptical leaf setup in the rear along with removing the bottom 2 load leaves and the third leaf from the 2in reset packs. It dropped nearly 100mm but the wheel travel still sucks.

Before today's work it would literally move maybe 100mm in total rear suspension travel. It's now probly doubled? Which is still shit.

It's just the stupid alloy tray not having enough weight to compress the springs properly.. I'm scared of docking another leaf due to the power and weight in the front (5L) I'm scared once I get good useable wheel travel I'll be dealing with wicked axle wrap. There's only 4 leaves in the pack as it is! I'm not willing to put the effort into a ladder bar either...

Any suggestions?

If you think it's the weight why don't you find something heavy and strap it down n flex it up n see if weight helps.

But I'd still try to keep the truck light, but that means on leafs light packs n a ladder bar.

Or look at going coils in rear as I've done, but that's more work

Brad

Why not just use the hand brake as its rear only?

Brakes develop a whole lot more h.p. than any engine, just in reverse. Snapping shit with one foot on the brake and one foot on the accelerator is piss easy (took me about 2 seconds to strip both diffs in a pos 100 series....). In the long run, not a good way of gaining traction - auto lockers are cheap mate.

You can either carry weight or have great flex. You need to decide if you need more of one than the other or live with the compromise like the rest of us. Weight in the rear will help you flex up, but it won't help you climb.

I've seen lux's take out a few EWC/genie/sss events - they can be set up extremely well and without too much effort.

CRUZAAMAD wrote:luxes have always had bad cv's problems, especialy the oldshape.
the front diffs are that small, up till 89 were a decent sized front diff, later ones went, tiny...

What?

theyre the same until 96 when they went IFS.
Ive swapped ln106 centres into my old 1988 housings and vice versa.Theyre all 8'' diffs

GBC wrote:Brakes develop a whole lot more h.p. than any engine, just in reverse. Snapping shit with one foot on the brake and one foot on the accelerator is piss easy (took me about 2 seconds to strip both diffs in a pos 100 series....). In the long run, not a good way of gaining traction - auto lockers are cheap mate.

You can either carry weight or have great flex. You need to decide if you need more of one than the other or live with the compromise like the rest of us. Weight in the rear will help you flex up, but it won't help you climb.

I've seen lux's take out a few EWC/genie/sss events - they can be set up extremely well and without too much effort.

What .??
Please translate .. Lockers break less than braking does ..


Nup I don't buy it for a second.

Doubt you'd be breaking things by using the brakes but it would be more due to the excessive wheel spin..
You will break less with lockers because you can drive more controlled and crawl things rather then having to spin the wheels and accelerate hard.

Plus with lockers it shares out the load over the axles evenly rather then trying to drive off a open/LSD which will still be turning one axle.

As said above better getting auto lockers then a LSD

Brad

Well the reasoning behind the LSD in the front was mainly that we had one spare. But also steering. From what I've read/seen lockers in the front are a pain in the ass on tight tracks. It's already got rubbish steering without throwing a locker in!

As far as load carrying goes, I don't care about loads. It's a weekend wheeler and only sees track and comps. So there is no compromise needed. I'm chasin out and out off road capability.

A manual diff lock in front is the best option if not a auto locker in the front will be easier on the cv's then a LSD will, if you havn't shimmed the LSD I would be doubtful of it being much benefit anyway.

Speaking from experience with lockers even the auto lockers don't tighten up steering that much, sure there will be a couple of times where it might make it hard to turn but you just reverse a little it will unlock and then turn and drive again.. But this won't happen on all 4x4 tracks just occasionally.

It's no different to me driving a hard track up hill ill usually have front and rear air lockers engauged and while steering is s little heavier you still can mostly steer. At least a auto locker will disengage when not under load.

I am still doubtful it was the LSD that broke the cv, there would have been more contributing factors then just that.

And I have had auto lockers front/rear if you wondering and thought they were great.

Brad

love_mud wrote:

GBC wrote:Brakes develop a whole lot more h.p. than any engine, just in reverse. Snapping shit with one foot on the brake and one foot on the accelerator is piss easy (took me about 2 seconds to strip both diffs in a pos 100 series....). In the long run, not a good way of gaining traction - auto lockers are cheap mate.

You can either carry weight or have great flex. You need to decide if you need more of one than the other or live with the compromise like the rest of us. Weight in the rear will help you flex up, but it won't help you climb.

I've seen lux's take out a few EWC/genie/sss events - they can be set up extremely well and without too much effort.

What .??
Please translate .. Lockers break less than braking does ..


Nup I don't buy it for a second.

I wouldn't suggest it, but you could go out the front yard, stick whatever fourby you have in low range first, drive off and break something in the driveline by using the accelerator and brakes at the same time. A couple of stiff jabs (ala trying to get traction over an obstacle) will do it no probs. Depending on what you've got you'll have to pull the abs fuse, and if its a hilux you'll have to get the brakes serviced so it may just pass a road worthy.

With a locker you're not as tempted to rev up your car whilst stabbing the brake pedal, looking for traction that isn't there.

OP - you don't want a track bar, you don't want a front locker, but you want out and out offroad capability? Send it to monster garage and stick a hovercraft under it. The hilux mod wheel was invented a long time ago - no need to reinvent it.

To go back to the cv question and clarify... The left front wheel was half way up a step (not spinning) while the right was dropped out and spinning (slowly) I braked to lock up the LSD and as soon as I did that, the cv went. So it was very low wheel rpm.

While the LSD was acting as a locker, the left front wheel also had to overcome the resistance of the brakes on top of the traction it was getting.

I dont want to lock the front due to the class I compete in...

The 33's and the rock step was probably the biggest part of your undoing - hitting the brakes was just the icing on the cake so to speak. Hilux drivelines are pretty good (not great), but seriously, left foot braking is going to find the limits of it every time in a situation like that. You are creating artificial traction in excess of what you are already stuck on to have the lsd kick in at all. Make sense? If you are competing in challenge class then I'd probably get used to changing c.v.'s - a front lsd and the ability to get any advantage at all from it puts you in a better position than others in that class anyway. You could start upgrading components, but as you do you'll find weak spots further up the driveline and the whole thing becomes a bit expensive.

georgey wrote:

CRUZAAMAD wrote:luxes have always had bad cv's problems, especialy the oldshape.
the front diffs are that small, up till 89 were a decent sized front diff, later ones went, tiny...

What?

theyre the same until 96 when they went IFS.
Ive swapped ln106 centres into my old 1988 housings and vice versa.Theyre all 8'' diffs

not true. i m sure in 89-90 is when they changed. same size crownwheel 8" but differtent pinion. theats why you get v6 diffs and so on. different size pinion bearings. i know i put the bigger version in my ln67

also if you want a bit more traction put a bit of wieght in the tray. i use to get massive hop in the back of my ln67 single cab with a alloy tray; changed to a dropside steel tray and bobs your uncle.

toyo LSD are shit dont waste your time with them they wear out quicker then you can drive them. mine lasted about 4 burnouts in my lux befor it spins singles( in a 2wd lux.) wont slide at all even when it was a new LSD want traction fit a locker. in your case with it being a weekend warriour put a CIG locker in the rear

old lux wrote:

georgey wrote:

CRUZAAMAD wrote:luxes have always had bad cv's problems, especialy the oldshape.
the front diffs are that small, up till 89 were a decent sized front diff, later ones went, tiny...

What?

theyre the same until 96 when they went IFS.
Ive swapped ln106 centres into my old 1988 housings and vice versa.Theyre all 8'' diffs

not true. i m sure in 89-90 is when they changed. same size crownwheel 8" but differtent pinion. theats why you get v6 diffs and so on. different size pinion bearings. i know i put the bigger version in my ln67

also if you want a bit more traction put a bit of wieght in the tray. i use to get massive hop in the back of my ln67 single cab with a alloy tray; changed to a dropside steel tray and bobs your uncle.

toyo LSD are shit dont waste your time with them they wear out quicker then you can drive them. mine lasted about 4 burnouts in my lux befor it spins singles( in a 2wd lux.) wont slide at all even when it was a new LSD want traction fit a locker. in your case with it being a weekend warriour put a CIG locker in the rear

No they are the same, you said different sized pinions but this is only due to different ratio
Ie- 4.3 has a larger pinion then a 4.8
As you go up from 4.3- 4.5- 4.8- 5.12 the pinions progressively get smaller.
And the gears arnt stronger in a V6 hilux centre, all it is is a stronger carrier and larger bearings.
Some crownwheels are also thicker depending on ratio and carrier. But that does not make them stronger (still same tooth contact)

But they are all the same size

Generally speaking the older Lux's had 4.88- 4.55's then the newer mostly had 4.3 depending on engine (larger pinion and slightly larger crownwheel teeth due to different ratio) so maybe this is where you thought they were stronger

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but I have built and pulled apart alot of diffs..
V6 diffs still break the same as a well setup 4cyl lux diff only 6cyl ones are more durable..

Brad

There are some very minor differences .. bearings are a bit bigger and the teeth on the pinion are a bit longer
The housings are the same ...

taken from the locktup site http://www.locktup4x4.com.au/blog/toyot ... n-v6-4cyl/

It is a common belief in the aftermarket that there are two different 8″ Toyota Ring and Pinions – the “V6″ and the “4cyl”. Whilst it is true that there are two different designs, the name given is misleading.

In actuality the Ring and Pinions that most refer to as a “4Cyl” are simply the thinner 85 and older pinion head design. The Ring and Pinions that most refer to as the “V6″ are actually found in all 86+ 8″ diffs, regardless of engine type. The actual difference between the V6 and 4CYL vehicles is that the V6 does have a different housing and different pinion and carrier bearings.

By housing I mean the carrier (3rd member) not sure if you thought I meant diff housing.

But for there to be different sized pinion bearings and bigger carrier bearings the housing is different, and it is slightly beefier and solid then 4cyl ones. But yeh as you have said its minimal..

yer talking about pinion bearings bro. diffeent size side by side. bloke showed me when we rebuilt my diffs he said to chase up soe 90s model as they were stronger. i didnt believe him till he showed me. he is a ex Toyo Mechainic and runs out ARB dealership workshop so he does them all the time.

not saying you where wrong just saying from what i have seen and heard.

and yes they were different carrier bearings. but still all bolted up into the same 3rd member