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Modifying an old Thomas winch into a comp winch...
Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:00 pm
by bushy555
Was given an old 8000 pound Thomas winch few years back.
These were the Aussie made equivalent to the Warn High mount back in the hey-day. Early 1980's era if I am correct. Well and truly before the now common low mount winch with their planetary gears. Made in Brisbane, they were big, heavy, slow, but would out pull a warn with its 470 something ratio to 1.
Made me think; how about modifying it to made it go like the wind as a competition winch?
This is going to be a long drawn out project. Comments, hints, or 'give-up now' are mostly welcomed.
I had thoughts of putting twin or triple motors just behind where the original motor sits, and running a chain to another short stub axle which would drive the small gear.
Originally there is a small 18 tooth gear driving a 55 tooth gear, another 18 to 55, and then that drives a 50:1 worm drive to the drum axle.
Total ratio is 470 something to 1. All in its own housing which normally is half full of oil. Much better designed for longetivity than the factory Warn hi-mount.
Mucking around with the gears, there really is only one outcome that I can come up with, and that is to bypass the twin 18:55, and go direct to 50:1 ratio.
Probably way too fast and way too under powered for pulling. But hey, its fun experimenting right...
So I was trying to pull the motor out, and I buggered it all up.
Original Warn hi-mount 2.5 hp motor.
Original T-Max 4.6 hp motor.
Original 30 year old Thomas motor. Look at the quality.
Then I said, "nah, bugger it, just run triple motors like this"
/laugh/
People thoughts on any of this? Would it work with a 50:1 ratio with twin 12v 6hp motors at 24 volt?
What roughly are the overall ratios that the twin and triple lo-mount comp spec winches are running these days?
Re: Modifying an old Thomas winch into a comp winch...
Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:50 pm
by brando4x4
I believe that most of the guys just use the standard warn ratios with a tripple motor setup
Quite interested in this keep us updated
Re: Modifying an old Thomas winch into a comp winch...
Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:20 pm
by gudge
A comp spec low mount runs a 26:1 ratio with twin 6hp @24v, some also run triple motors. A good friend of mine has been cutting his own highmount gear sets anywhere from 30:1 to 60:1. He also made a one off set of 18:1 for a gigglepin top hat running 4x 6hps, crazy fast.
Winches this fast do lose a fair bit of pulling power, but still make great comp winches. You just need to change your winch and drive style a bit, hook up early and attempt to drive whilst winching in, and when u stop driving forward your winch rope is already tight pulling you up. Very quick way to get up a hill.
I think a 50:1 is a great ratio for twin motors and Look forward to seeing this thing go
Re: Modifying an old Thomas winch into a comp winch...
Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:48 pm
by -Scott-
Great concept, but I'm not convinced it will be practical.
The efficiency of a 50:1 worm drive is quite low (might be as low as 30%), as there are significant frictional losses. More motors may make it pull faster, but will the worm drive cope with the heat dissipation?
Also, can you make it free-wheel to spool out? At 50:1, there's no way that the wheel will drive the worm, so if you can't decouple the drum from the wheel your only option will be do power it out.
Re: Modifying an old Thomas winch into a comp winch...
Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:07 pm
by gudge
Didn't think of the worm drive, I think they are brass? Probably wouldn't handle the speed of the motors at 24v. The worm drive also acts as the brake, so there must be a way to disconnect the drum
Re: Modifying an old Thomas winch into a comp winch...
Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:19 am
by bushy555
gudge wrote:Didn't think of the worm drive, I think they are brass? Probably wouldn't handle the speed of the motors at 24v. The worm drive also acts as the brake, so there must be a way to disconnect the drum
Thanks for all of the comments so far. Had no idea at what ratios peeps were running. Bit of a difference from 470:1 to 18:1 !
Not sure about the worm gear being brass. Have seen pics of it, but really need to pull apart and have a decent squiz. Needs pulling apart for a full clean-up anyway.
Worm gear is immersed in 90 weight oil all the time, so heat should not really be a problem --- especially if one was to run a small oil intercooler.
But the upwards of 30% loss in effeciency within the worm drive has me a little worried. 'perplexed' may be a better word. 'Bugger it' is also another.
I should have taken more pics; on the other end of the drum there is a fancy drum disconnect with a hand handle. (triple to 4x the length and size of low mounts), so you can put both hands on the handle and give it a good pull or push if the drum were to ever get caught up. From factory one could also purchase an add-on air or vacuum ram to operated the drum disconnect. Thomas were kinda ahead of their time.
Another aquaintence of mine had a crack at making his own triple motor low mount setup with sprockets and chain. Not sure how far along he is with it.
Re: Modifying an old Thomas winch into a comp winch...
Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:59 am
by gudge
If you have the time I say go for it. It's great seeing different ideas, even if they arnt 100% perfect. You might create something awsome. Here's a few pics of my twin motor lowmount, russ did the air freespool and ratios, and me and a couple of mates made the motor adapter.
This was before we put the belts and pulleys on. Would love to see some pics of chain drive, that thing would be loud!
Re: Modifying an old Thomas winch into a comp winch...
Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:11 am
by dogbreath_48
I've heard of these Thomas winches (in pto driven config) bending main shafts/drums and flexing/rounding shoulders off the dog clutch (thus disengaging under load - no braking). I personally wouldn't be throwing much money into one.
Re: Modifying an old Thomas winch into a comp winch...
Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:27 am
by rockcrawler31
I believe i can assist with some of this.
I have a PTO driven thomas. I looked into the electric driving of it for competition use.
Firstly the worm and teeth are bronze, not brass. You need to make sure you use an oil with a spastically heavy viscosity and high shear resistance.
At 40-50:1 realistically you'll want to reduce the electrical motor speed by about 2:1 to get decent torque out of it. There are reduction boxes available commercially for this purpose.
The Thomas 8000lb does indeed bend main shafts if you start doing high dynamic loads like falling back on slack winch rope or snigging logs out of the forest. Ask me how i know
The dog clutches are a two tooth (180 degrees cutout), and can be made more reliable by putting a 1-2 degree back bevel on the faces to stop them working apart. Otherwise do what i do and put a clevis pin in the handle at either engagement position to hold it. Air freespool could very easily be done with an air ram working on the lever as it's a straight engagement instead of a rotary engagement like a lowmount. The winch would need to be well serviced though as without regular use the dog clutch can take some force to move.
Talk to Maurice at Thomas industries in brisbane. These are still being produced new and larger stronger versions are available.
Personally i would also consider the use of a pto driven variable displacement hydraulic pump instead of electric as an alternative. You still need engine power so in the case of a rollover recovery would be difficult, but the HP available is mental , and with a variable displacement pump you can match hydraulic pump speed and pressure to drive speed so there's no overrnning the winch when traction is gained. If you use DECENT coolers you won't need to run a huge tank either.
While australians seem to be fucking obsessed with electric winches (all the winch challenge boys all seem to think that electric winches are the only way to pull a vehicle
), the NZ guys, the Brits, Europeans and plenty of others have all had a LOT of successfull R&D into PTO/Hydro winches. Why do you think industry uses hydraulic lifting and rigging so exclusively
Re: Modifying an old Thomas winch into a comp winch...
Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:36 am
by gudge
rockcrawler31 wrote:
While australians seem to be fucking obsessed with electric winches (all the winch challenge boys all seem to think that electric winches are the only way to pull a vehicle
)
rockcrawler31 wrote:You still need engine power so in the case of a rollover recovery would be difficult
Also there are quite a few comp rules which don't allow hydraulic or pto, put together with simplicity, reliability and space saving ( yes I know u need battery's) electric really isn't as bad as u make it.
I would say the reason some industry uses hyraulic would be like you said, the amazing amount of power available, but it doesn't suit all scenarios.
Re: Modifying an old Thomas winch into a comp winch...
Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:31 pm
by rockcrawler31
gudge wrote:rockcrawler31 wrote:
While australians seem to be fucking obsessed with electric winches (all the winch challenge boys all seem to think that electric winches are the only way to pull a vehicle
)
rockcrawler31 wrote:You still need engine power so in the case of a rollover recovery would be difficult
Also there are quite a few comp rules which don't allow hydraulic or pto, put together with simplicity, reliability and space saving ( yes I know u need battery's) electric really isn't as bad as u make it.
I would say the reason some industry uses hyraulic would be like you said, the amazing amount of power available, but it doesn't suit all scenarios.
Don't get me wrong gudge, i don't have a thing against electric winches. I'll be fitting one to the buggy as it'll be very likely to spend a bit of time on it's lid. In fact i'm VERY interested in the double lowmount you've pictured there for the buggy.
You've illustrated my point completely with the comp rules thing. Metcalfe once upon a time set a "beginners" level competition but ruled out the use of PTO winches on the retarded notion that it was "too hard to see what's been done to them and too easy to spend mega bucks on them". That pretty much ruled out a whole swag of us who had stock'ish trucks running toyota and thomas pto winches which contrary to what some seem to think are still quite common. If a man like Metcalf can't easily tell what has been done to something as basic as a PTO winch then what he's really saying is "I think a winch truck should only be a GQ patrol with a 8274 highmount and 15 motors on it, and if it's not that then it's not a winch truck and you can't play with us". But you're right, until the spastic rules about only allowing electric winches in some comps is relaxed then fitting bushie's winch or a full PTO winch is a gamble on not being able to compete.
what's more simple than a driveshaft and a worm drive? If you've ever had a thomas apart you'd be astounded at the stoneage engineering in them. As for space, i don't need to package solenoids, cables, controllers, batteries and in some cases extra motors and a second alternator.
But that's very off topic. I think electric motors on PTO winch housings kinda takes the worst of both set ups. All the downsides of electric (batteries, cabling, power losses, heat, duty cycle). It has potential, but the main hurdle is still the HP/Torque/gearing/RPM balance.
Re: Modifying an old Thomas winch into a comp winch...
Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:28 pm
by -Scott-
bushy555 wrote:But the upwards of 30% loss in effeciency within the worm drive has me a little worried. 'perplexed' may be a better word. 'Bugger it' is also another.
Do your own research on efficiencies, but I didn't post 30% loss - it was 30% efficiency, or 70% loss.
About 10 years ago I investigated a worm drive for a project I was working on. Efficiency killed the concept very quickly.
Re: Modifying an old Thomas winch into a comp winch...
Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:54 am
by bushy555
-Scott- wrote:bushy555 wrote:But the upwards of 30% loss in effeciency within the worm drive has me a little worried. 'perplexed' may be a better word. 'Bugger it' is also another.
Do your own research on efficiencies, but I didn't post 30% loss - it was 30% efficiency, or 70% loss.
My typo. I knew what I meant to say.
Re: Modifying an old Thomas winch into a comp winch...
Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:54 am
by Struth
gudge wrote:If you have the time I say go for it. It's great seeing different ideas, even if they arnt 100% perfect. You might create something awsome. Here's a few pics of my twin motor lowmount, russ did the air freespool and ratios, and me and a couple of mates made the motor adapter.
This was before we put the belts and pulleys on. Would love to see some pics of chain drive, that thing would be loud!
Just curious, it seems you have pretty much made a twin hi mount from a lo mount.
Are there gains with what you have made vs a hi mount with twins?
The idea looks ok to me, is it just saving money over the exorbitant prices they charge for twin motor top hats?
Cheers
Re: Modifying an old Thomas winch into a comp winch...
Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:13 pm
by rockcrawler31
No expensive gearsets to manufacture. If you want a ratio change then it's as simple as finding a drive cog with a different radius. The one's that i saw that russ had made used a toothed cam timing belt.
Also, the base winch that it is made from is substantially cheaper than a 8724. So even with the odd breakage you can afford to go through a few.
A full house Gigglepin is 7k. While it's certainly well made, the engineering in it is simply not that great. It's a gearbox, a bunch of cogs and a casting or two. There's similar technology in industry items that cost SUBSTANTIALLY less for the same thing but because it's for a "4wd/competition use".....well......
Yet some people still say that hydro winches are too expensive
Re: Modifying an old Thomas winch into a comp winch...
Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:39 pm
by toughnut
For winching up things on large angle the electric winch is best suited for this but for slogging though heavy mud (which is fairly normal in NZ and European comps) you are much better off with a hydraulic winch.
Also a lot of Australian comps require you to be able to self recover from a roll over because of the remote nature of the events which rules out hydraulic winches unless you use a turfer or something similar.
The main reason people are looking at low mount winches now is that they are much cheaper in comparison to specced hi mounts and can have changes in ratios much faster, easier and cheaper than high mounts.
Re: Modifying an old Thomas winch into a comp winch...
Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:25 pm
by rockcrawler31
I prefer to just have a manitou follow me round.........
Re: Modifying an old Thomas winch into a comp winch...
Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:50 pm
by -Scott-
rockcrawler31 wrote:I prefer to just have a man or two follow me round.........
Fiksed the typo for you.
But not sure what this has to do with the topic?
Re: Modifying an old Thomas winch into a comp winch...
Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:52 am
by rockcrawler31
-Scott- wrote:rockcrawler31 wrote:I prefer to just have a man or two follow me round.........
Fiksed the typo for you.
But not sure what this has to do with the topic?
I prefer them to be under 4 feet tall though
Re: Modifying an old Thomas winch into a comp winch...
Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:29 am
by Guy
toughnut wrote:For winching up things on large angle the electric winch is best suited for this but for slogging though heavy mud (which is fairly normal in NZ and European comps) you are much better off with a hydraulic winch.
Also a lot of Australian comps require you to be able to self recover from a roll over because of the remote nature of the events which rules out hydraulic winches unless you use a turfer or something similar.
The main reason people are looking at low mount winches now is that they are much cheaper in comparison to specced hi mounts and can have changes in ratios much faster, easier and cheaper than high mounts.
Simple .. two winches, supersonic hydraulic at front and a normal 8000pound low mount in the rear.
Re: Modifying an old Thomas winch into a comp winch...
Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:50 pm
by toughnut
love_mud wrote:toughnut wrote:For winching up things on large angle the electric winch is best suited for this but for slogging though heavy mud (which is fairly normal in NZ and European comps) you are much better off with a hydraulic winch.
Also a lot of Australian comps require you to be able to self recover from a roll over because of the remote nature of the events which rules out hydraulic winches unless you use a turfer or something similar.
The main reason people are looking at low mount winches now is that they are much cheaper in comparison to specced hi mounts and can have changes in ratios much faster, easier and cheaper than high mounts.
Simple .. two winches, supersonic hydraulic at front and a normal 8000pound low mount in the rear.
Thats the plan.
Re: Modifying an old Thomas winch into a comp winch...
Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:59 pm
by Reddo
mate, maybe look at patent pending that design now,,,,,,,
Re: Modifying an old Thomas winch into a comp winch...
Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:32 pm
by toughnut
For a hydraulic winch I'd suggest that you guys have a look at RED winches. It gives a full rundown on their comp winch and what they've done to get it sorted. Its a very nice little unit and the only dedicated comp hydro winch I could find off the shelf and its actually a pretty good price when compared to other comp winches. Just like the ruffstuff winches are compared to the Gigglepin
Re: Modifying an old Thomas winch into a comp winch...
Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:12 pm
by BabyGodzillaGTi-R
http://img.rnudah.com/images/46/4644800603.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://img.rnudah.com/images/46/4634593449.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://img.rnudah.com/images/46/4602780001.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I would love to see MMM's reaction if this turns up at a winch challenge.
Flame suit on coz i know some would be horrified and mortified with this contraption.
If u guys aren't sure what's this have a look at this pics to see if it makes sense.
http://www.geckoadventure.net/BLOG/2011 ... 38_RED.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.geckoadventure.net/BLOG/2011 ... 12_RED.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.geckoadventure.net/BLOG/2011 ... 37_RED.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Essentially its a Toyota Prado/Hilux IFS diff.
Just choose the Final drive ratio of your choice haha.
Re: Modifying an old Thomas winch into a comp winch...
Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:37 pm
by rockcrawler31
Bwa ha ha. I think he'd be speechless. Then apoplectic, then speechless again. Who would DARE bring something DIFFERENT to a whinge challenge event.
Re: Modifying an old Thomas winch into a comp winch...
Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:48 pm
by Fakey
Heres a kiwi version of the god winch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmz7giMzJxg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgx1hc5GikU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: Modifying an old Thomas winch into a comp winch...
Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:16 pm
by BabyGodzillaGTi-R
rockcrawler31 wrote:Bwa ha ha. I think he'd be speechless. Then apoplectic, then speechless again. Who would DARE bring something DIFFERENT to a whinge challenge event.
So have anyone actually used this in Oz?
So far MMM doesn't question us when we used them in the RFC but it is interesting to know judging on the forums he will cause quite a stir in Oz if someone decides to turn up in one of these.
End of the day i reckon its the singer and not the song when it comes to winching.
Though it's been a long time but it shows that in this year's "Russian Friendly Challenge" (no pun intended) a Gigglepin can still compete competitively for overall honours by winning the 2012 Rainforest Challenge in Melaka, Malaysia.
I wonder the Kiwi boys, what sort of gear ratios they use and what's the brake setup like (if any) on their God's winch.
Suddenly this just struck me, i wonder if a God winch will still work if one attempts to perform a "the God's must be crazy" winch stunt by vertically winching up a tree. Aye ya yai ya yai
Re: Modifying an old Thomas winch into a comp winch...
Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:35 pm
by Fakey
Yes there is a brake set up on the god winch, think they show parts of it in the first video i posted. The loud clicking noise you can hear is the brake. They have to have some sort of brake to compete
Re: Modifying an old Thomas winch into a comp winch...
Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:49 am
by XTREME MMM
It seems my name is getting tossed around here a lot.
For a start I saw these "Spirit Winches" as they were called many years ago when they first appeared at the RFC and that is the main reason that most winch style events will not allow them - Unsafe, non production base winch and no automatic brake set up.
And the main reason that they were made was due to the cost compared to a spec'ed 8274 and now they have the Gigglepin to contend with. So it was the cheapest way to become competitive as the Malaysian did. But as stated 2 of the Top 3 from this years RFC were 12 volt Gigglepin Winches and the other was a "Spirit Winch". Change has happened, electric can compete with those style of PTO. These winches are great in the mud, but get technical or have several winch hook ups and they well and truly lose out. These are a Jungle Winch first and foremost.
Also the question has been asked if I would allow these in my events; quick answer no. But if an overseas car came and competed in the Exedy XI - RFC, I would allow. Because in this style of event with several winch's in a SS that style of PTO would get hammed by a electric winch. Toss in a reverse winch and they are lost, do slow technical winches and they again are lost. As for self recovery forget it.
Hydraulic is the way to go, winch is cheap but the set up is the killer. Remember that flow makes it go. And the only way I would have a hydraulic winch is for the pump to drive directly off the motor not the PTO. So due to cost to get this working as I would want it to, It would be easier and cheaper to fit a new 60% Gigglepin complete with their Hellfire gear set.
As an organiser it is better to have off the shelf products being used in the event, by doing this it might attract sponsors of those product. "Spirit Winches" are made by everyone in Malaysia, so I can never see me getting support from anyone who makes them.
Cheers
David
Re: Modifying an old Thomas winch into a comp winch...
Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 2:16 pm
by rockcrawler31
XTREME MMM wrote:
It seems my name is getting tossed around here a lot.
For a start I saw these "Spirit Winches" as they were called many years ago when they first appeared at the RFC and that is the main reason that most winch style events will not allow them - Unsafe, non production base winch and no automatic brake set up.
I agree that the early spirit winches were erm........nigger rigged at best, but they have moved on and have been refined a lot and many now meet all safety requirements
And the main reason that they were made was due to the cost compared to a spec'ed 8274 and now they have the Gigglepin to contend with. So it was the cheapest way to become competitive as the Malaysian did. But as stated 2 of the Top 3 from this years RFC were 12 volt Gigglepin Winches and the other was a "Spirit Winch". Change has happened, electric can compete with those style of PTO. These winches are great in the mud, but get technical or have several winch hook ups and they well and truly lose out. These are a Jungle Winch first and foremost.
So what? if that's what a guy has, or wants, then it's up to him to bring it, pony up and prove it works. Currently you and your whinge challenge mates are behaving like petulant children in your sandpit who won't let others play unless they bring the toys you want. If it doesn't work then the market will push it out and guys won't use it. But pray tell, what technical stuff can't they do? air freespool? been done. drum width? been done. winch out under power? been done. braked? been done.
Also the question has been asked if I would allow these in my events; quick answer no. But if an overseas car came and competed in the Exedy XI - RFC, I would allow. Because in this style of event with several winch's in a SS that style of PTO would get hammed by a electric winch. Toss in a reverse winch and they are lost, do slow technical winches and they again are lost. As for self recovery forget it.
Very interesting. If these were unsafe then i would assume then they would still be disallowed to compete so it can't be a safety thing. So if it's not a safety thing why one rule for some and not for locals? Is there another reason? You and your string puller mates are strangling innovation and creativity with your horseshit attitudes. It's so painfully obvious when guys in two other MAJOR winch challenge markets are happily allowing and using this gear that something here in oz is wrong
Hydraulic is the way to go, winch is cheap but the set up is the killer. Remember that flow makes it go. And the only way I would have a hydraulic winch is for the pump to drive directly off the motor not the PTO. So due to cost to get this working as I would want it to, It would be easier and cheaper to fit a new 60% Gigglepin complete with their Hellfire gear set.
As an organiser it is better to have off the shelf products being used in the event, by doing this it might attract sponsors of those product. "Spirit Winches" are made by everyone in Malaysia, so I can never see me getting support from anyone who makes them.
Ahhhhh here we get to the crux of things. Money. Now i would never suggest that organisers organise events and not expect to get paid. But these are YOUR sponsors and considering that the bulk of competitors are struggling to get sponsored then it's grossly unfair to us that we should be getting hamstrung by your financial considerations. What happened if my truck got sponsored by the "XYZ DIFFERENTIAL WINCH CO."? If it's safe you should let it compete. Imagine if an organiser said that because their event was sponsored by ARB then any car sponsored by TJM or had a TJM locker in it would be disallowed. Imagine if someone said that in their event you could have any diff housing by any manufacturer you wanted but you could ONLY run CAL's CV's? they would sound like a bit of a dick wouldn't they. This is why so many of us are moving away from string pulling and going to events that have a range of REAL 4X4 skills. Hell, why don't you just mount 50 batteries and 30 motors to an industrial winch and a RHS frame on dolly wheels and call it 4x4 winch racing and get it over with because that's what you guys are working towards
Cheers
David
