Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Hey I'm just curious, I know now you need 1 3/4 cold drawn seamless for roll cage construction or chromoly (my bar work is built to spec) but how is it they tell that it's seam 1 3/4 not seamless when paint can hide flaws so much?
Is it a measurement of OD of tube?

So for something like Toperi 2013 you need full CCDA roll over protection, do you just get your cage assessed by a approved CCDA person?

It might sound like a dumb question for some but just wondering what the processes are.

Cheers
Brad

Many competitions will have their own scrutineers who "should" know what they're looking for in regards to material type, construction and welding standards, design (as compared to the standard being measured against I.E. CAMS or CCDA).

Some may ask for certification, receipts for materials or construction pics instead.

Aust4 for example requires either an authorised builder or if home built some documentation or proof of materials used.

At TTC this yr Performance Metals were there at scrutineering with a detector. Min spec is 2.6mm for CDW tube..

in the states for U4 they drill a hole in the cage and check before having it welded up.

OD is always a give away between CDW and seamed pipe.

The reason I ask is because my mate used 3.2 wall 1 3/4 Seam tube and I used 2.6 wall seamless but his tube is around 1.5mm smaller OD
He has a full exo but by the sounds of it he might have to remake all the barwork.

I suppose if you are looking at that stuff all the time you could tell.

Tell him to just give it a couple more coats of paint. Who's gonna know.....

brad 93hilux wrote:The reason I ask is because my mate used 3.2 wall 1 3/4 Seam tube and I used 2.6 wall seamless but his tube is around 1.5mm smaller OD
He has a full exo but by the sounds of it he might have to remake all the barwork.

I suppose if you are looking at that stuff all the time you could tell.

Yes he will have to remake it all if he wishes to comp in any NSW comp... queenslanders seem not to care to much but..

Thanks for the info, was wondering how you tell by looking at the outside of the tube.
Parking my truck next to his by eye it's hard to tell but put a set of vernier callipers on the tube and it is different.

Cheers

Internal roll cage for the fix.

stilivn wrote:Internal roll cage for the fix.

Would they dis reguard exo tube material if you had a internal cage to spec? Be a lot of weight and steel but

Heard a few people doing this for tt. Check with Pete but to be sure. Yep lot of weight may be deciding factor to just chop it off an start again. Now you own a jd2 an die atleast your mate knows where to find a decent bender, although I still think you need to upgrade to air hydro.

stilivn wrote:Heard a few people doing this for tt. Check with Pete but to be sure. Yep lot of weight may be deciding factor to just chop it off an start again. Now you own a jd2 an die atleast your mate knows where to find a decent bender, although I still think you need to upgrade to air hydro.

Yeh most definately, I reckon I can fab up my own setup with a air over hydraulic engine crane jack and would be pretty simple.. But it does take a lot of effort out of bending.

brad 93hilux wrote:

stilivn wrote:Heard a few people doing this for tt. Check with Pete but to be sure. Yep lot of weight may be deciding factor to just chop it off an start again. Now you own a jd2 an die atleast your mate knows where to find a decent bender, although I still think you need to upgrade to air hydro.

Yeh most definately, I reckon I can fab up my own setup with a air over hydraulic engine crane jack and would be pretty simple.. But it does take a lot of effort out of bending.

Yeah that's what my swag off-road adapter uses. Looks fairly simple if you have the skills.

What I find funny is CCDA don't have any specs for an 'external' roll cage. Nor do they recognize it as any form of ROPS.

External roll cages can't be CCDA compliant...

Z()LTAN wrote:What I find funny is CCDA don't have any specs for an 'external' roll cage. Nor do they recognize it as any form of ROPS.

External roll cages can't be CCDA compliant...

How do you define a cage on a soft top car?? Is it internal with the roof on and external with it off

turbo gu wrote:
How do you define a cage on a soft top car??

A cage

The occupancy area (including rear stays) is all that needs to be compliant with regard to tube. NOT the whole Exo.



brooksy

Z()LTAN wrote:What I find funny is CCDA don't have any specs for an 'external' roll cage. Nor do they recognize it as any form of ROPS.

External roll cages can't be CCDA compliant...

The rules also state if the vehicle is fitted with an external cage each car will be assessed individually at scrutineering... You are right there CCDA do not allow external cages within there rules, however the rules are made for winch trucks not crawlers .. most comps use them for there insurance and they write supplements if they want anything changed.

brad 93hilux wrote:The reason I ask is because my mate used 3.2 wall 1 3/4 Seam tube and I used 2.6 wall seamless but his tube is around 1.5mm smaller OD
He has a full exo but by the sounds of it he might have to remake all the barwork.

I suppose if you are looking at that stuff all the time you could tell.

Hi Brad,

Yep unfortunately your mate has either been sold or unknowingly purchased material that is not compliant.

Any actual 1.75" CDW, CDS, DOM or Chromoly Tube will have an OD of 44.45mm (44.5mm) regardless of the wall thickness.

The product your mate has purchased could well be 32NB Pipe (not Tube) - it has an OD of around 42.2 to 42.5mm. I have heard people occasionally call it 1.75" Pipe because it's near that OD, but this is just a slang term and not a technical description of the product.

In any case it's not CCDA or CAMS compliant material.

Cheers,
Tazz

Here's a few tips for any one that is purchasing steel to build a roll cage and wants to compete, or thinks that one day you might.

Following these suggestions will help ensure the material you use will be compliant and give you less heartache should you want to compete in a CCDA related event....

*Make sure you you let the supplier know the material is for roll cage fabrication and must be CAMS / CCDA compliant TUBE.
*Emphasise with them the fact it must be TUBE and not pipe and the TUBE needs an OD of 44.45mm (44.5) and a min wall thickness of 2.5mm (it will be 2.6mm that is supplied).
* Each batch of Tube has testing carried out on it to ensure it meets the required standards - It's also a good idea to ask for a copy of this certificate to prove the material complies and check the OD and Wall thickness against what is required.

I have attached a copy of one such certificate.

Things to take note of on the certificate are the following - each are marked on the attachment for your reference:

* Product Description / Name - in this case Cold Drawn Seamless Tube
*Specification material must meet / is tested to - in this case ASTM A519
*Date of Report to ensure it's recent - in this case 11/6/12
*Grade of Steel - in this case 1020 grade
*Dimensions - in particular Outer Diameter (OD) and Wall Thickness (WT)
*Tensile Strength (T.S) measured as MPA (Minimum required and Actual) - Min required is 350Mpa - this particular batch has come in @ 515Mpa
*The certificate should show the material passing the Test Results.

Yeh thanks for that, he must have been told the wrong thing because the measurements you say are correct so obviously was sold NB pipe not tube. Thanks for the clarification

That makes sence on the OD as this was what I was thinking they would be checking.

Cheers

Thats an awesome bit of info Tazz. Cheers mate.

So under CCDA rules being I have a ute (does not specify duel cab/single cab) all I would need to be compliant is the ute mounted roll bar to their specs and I would pass? Or do you need a internal cage too, can't see where it defines it.

Cheers

6 point

Guess ill wait to hear exact ruling on the comps I want to do as it may keep me out of a few events if I need a 6 pt cage.

Thanks for your help

Brad

Sorry to hijack the thread but I'm just about to start building my comp tray, I emailed racetech steel asking for prices on steel that is used for rollcages ect. He replied with two options for the steel tubing and he said they are both cams approved I'm just unsure of which to buy..

Here's his email..
'We stock two different materials. Both can be used for CAMS roll cage. Both come in a 7.32m Length

CDS 1026 grade premium: $146.03 (seamless)
CDW 1020 grade mild steel: $105.85 (welded)

Regards'

Both are compliant as they are both drawn over a mandrel to maintain consistent wall thickness.


brooksy

Being that times change and rules change hence no more nominal bore pipe and now only tube I'd be thinking of going the seamless higher spec tube just in case (that's what I did) for the sake of a bit extra cost now could save the heartache later should they tighten the rules further.

Have you got it piced from OPW? I think I paid less from them and that was 6m lengths CDS (delivered) which is race tech tube.
For CDS you are paying almost $20/m I'm sure I paid something like $12-14/m

Give TAZ a ring from OPW and have a chat, there easy to deal with.

Brad