Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Hey peoples,

Just home from Melbourne where I purchased a HJ61RG. Its got 240k on the clock, 24v system, all electrics work ie sunroof and windows, has minor (surface) rust around window frames and the sunroof itself is bubbly. After the 1300km trip the following were revealed:

-bad uni joints
-transfer case rear seal is shot
-clutch due
-diff whines, i suspect pinion issue


On a good note tho, the air con is great, tyres are good and I was getting 10-12L/100km out of the 12HT that seems to be running like a dream.

So, firstly I was wandering about the transfe case seal- are they an easy fix? can I repalace it under the car or do I have to drop it out first? Ive heard of some owners joining the gear box and transfer case plugs with hose to relieve pressure ...is this true?? Im not so worried about the clutch right now as Ive no 4wd trips planned. It will just be a commute up and down the highway so Im hoping that I can do the seal under the car...

Uni Joints... easy!

Diff whine... also some backlash too... what do you think it could be or what should I look for?

Cheers

The hose between boxes is to prevent the transfer of oil from one to the other. Well it doesn't actually prevent it, just compensates for it.

The rear output seal is an easy job. Remove shaft, remove nut, remove flange and there's the seal

The rear diff sounds knackered. They all get that way eventually. Rebuild time. Do it sooner rather then later to avoid damaging the gears. It gets real expensive when you need new gears.

oldmate wrote:The rear diff sounds knackered. They all get that way eventually. Rebuild time. Do it sooner rather then later to avoid damaging the gears. It gets real expensive when you need new gears.

Berfore damaging the gears- isnt that the point of a rebuild?? or is a rebuild just bearings and seals?

Usually they just require a full set of bearings. My rear has just been out at 500,000klms and was 10/10. If you run it for a while with crook bearings it will be harder to set up again properly and will always whine until it wears a new spot in.

EDIT: From memory a new C&P for a 60 is over $1500 plus labour. I was shitting bricks before mine came out. Mine just needed a pinion bearing and the carriers where replaced anyway even though they went in with the locker in 06 and where still fine.

EDIT 2: All new bearings and a lap dance where $400 at a diff shop and me and a mate pulled it out and put it back in. Most shops wanted $660++++

You can actually replace the transfer seal in the 60 without taking the gearbox out, the transfer will slip off in the vehicle. Put the double lipped auto seal in, it works better.

The thing is though, this is a problem with them, you really only slow the leak, not fix it. Bit like Holden red motor rear mains.......


Edit: I am talking about the rear gearbox to transfer case seal.

mkpatrol wrote: the transfer will slip off

How? We're talking about a split case aren't we?

RAY185 wrote:

mkpatrol wrote: the transfer will slip off

How? We're talking about a split case aren't we?

Its been a while (well over 10 years as I left the trade 11 years ago) but from memory you split and slip the rear casing off and then the gear on the output shaft of the gearbox and that would give you access to the seal.

I cant remember if I had to remove the backing plate of the transfer, I have a feeling I had to do that too. I have done quite a few this way but only the 60 series. The double lipped auto seal used to fix it.

I was never successful at doing the same thing in a 40 series anything or a 55 series as there just was not enough room to slip the housing of, it would hit the floor.

It was always a bit of a PITA to get the case back on because of the selector but if you were by yourself, it was easier than pulling the gearbox transfer out.

Yeah, you have to completely dismantle the transfer case off the back of the gearbox as you've described to replace the seal. Not my idea of "slip off" like you would with something like a hilux where it's like 4 bolts and the whole transfer comes off. Just making sure we were talking about the same case.

Agree it can be done in the car but its a PITA. I personally wouldn't waste my time and would just install the balance tube. In any case, OP was talking about rear output seal on the transfer and that is very easy to do as described above.

The OP talks about two different things, the rear seal (piece of piss) & then talks about relieving the pressure and installing the balance tube so I just took it he was talking about the rear gearbox seal.

On the balance tube thing, depends on the customer I guess. I suggested that to people but they didn't like the idea, for me yes I would do it but when the motor trade is full of arses & the next bloke sees a balance tube, the first thing he is going say is "Who did that bodgy job?"

I just preferred to fix things properly.

I agree, not as easy as a gutlux transfer but there is plenty of room around them as they are light duty.

One of the reasons I would do the transfer in car is the clutch, last thing I wanted to do was have a problem with a clutch after disturbing it. I know you may say "well put a clutch in it", I was not of that school, replacing or disturbing things that didn't need to be disturbed. It doesn't take much weight to bend a clutch plate and & with a heavy box/transfer combination as in a cruiser I didn't want to take the risk.

Plus they are farking heavy to lift!!!!

The balance tube is horseshit.

Depending on which way the oil is being wound out it can either balance the oil levels (if over filling the gearbox with transfer case oil) as the gearbox becomes over full it trickles back to the rear.

If overfilling the transfer with the gearbox oil all that will happen is the gearbox will run dry and the transfer will piss oil out all the output shaft seals.

since tyou want to do the clutch, just pull the lot out and do it properly

One assumes that the vehicle owner knows how the balance tube works before he fits it and as such, knows what problem it fixes. The gearbox overfilling problem is far more common than the other way around and - for a few dollars in fittings and hose - is a low cost and effective solution to an otherwise expensive problem.

OP hasn't reported either problem anyway that I can see so I wouldn't be doing anything at all.

I've had four cars with the described gearbox all had the balance tube fitted before I bought them. Not a problem in over 200,000ks of motoring between them, I still have one of them owned it 7 or 8 years now. I think it's commonly accepted to fix the problem.

When was the last time you saw a thread " My balance tube destroyed my gearbox"

Hey i'm happy for you all if it's worked for you, but i can tell you from direct experience of having fitted the tube and constantly having to refill the gearbox from the transfer case anyways.

If it works great, but it's still a coon bandaid fix that doesn't really address the real problem, and for the uneducated (like the sucker i was) it can provide false feeling of security until your gearbox dumps its guts from lack of oil.

Yep. Like I said. It is a specific solution to a specific problem, unfortunately not the problem you had. Nothing trumps routine maintenance anyway so regularly checking oil levels will alert you to a problem.......even if it's a coon bandaid fix not doing what you mistakenly thought it would.

All input to my question is greatly appreciated guys. Last couple days I have been back under the Sixty and cleaned up all old oil build up from the sides and under the gearbox and transfer case then took it for a couple laps around the block. This revealed that the oil is in fact leaking from the top side of the transfer case. Whether its from the breather or a shot seal I dont know.

Now I`m not sure the balance tube is the way to go in this case as I believe the transfer case is spitting its own oil out the top as the gear box doesnt seem to be loosing oil. Its the transfer case that needs to be refilled.


PS: Was it just me or has outers been inaccessible for the last week or so?

Nah it's been mainly good, pushing oil out of the top you say? I can't think of what is up there to do that, Although it's been a while since I have looked at one on the ground.

spitting out where on the top? There's a breather up there as i recall but otherwise the highest outlet for oil would be the output shafts or the selector input shafts.

If it's out the breather then fit a hose to the breather and it'll naturally drain back in.

There's a breather for the box but I don't think there is one on the case? Which is where he thinks his seems to be leaking, must be the box breather.

Put the balance tube on it.The oil is normally pumped from the tranfer box into the gear box which over fills and comes out the breather (your symptoms). the balance tube will recirculate the oil back to the transfer.Either that or pull the box and replace the seal.Cheaper and easier to fit the balance tube

Ok so either way the general consensus is fit the tube. No worries, will do. Thanks. will give it a couple weeks to sort its shit out and keep you informed.

Have you actually checked the oil levels in both the box and transfer?

indeed I have sir. The Gearbox remains fine. The transfer case requires topping up. I have just washed my hands after installing the balance tube and adding Nulon N70 to BOTH boxes. Got a 300km trip tomorrow arvo so will check levels again tomorrow night.

RoxbyRat wrote: Got a 300km trip tomorrow arvo so will check levels again tomorrow night.

And then?

rockcrawler31 wrote:Hey i'm happy for you all if it's worked for you, but i can tell you from direct experience of having fitted the tube and constantly having to refill the gearbox from the transfer case anyways.

If it works great, but it's still a coon bandaid fix that doesn't really address the real problem, and for the uneducated (like the sucker i was) it can provide false feeling of security until your gearbox dumps its guts from lack of oil.

Mmm, I have never seen one go the other way. They always drain the transfer and overfill the gearbox. The gearbox fill plug is higher than the transfer plug hence the tube being effective by using gravity to drain the oil back to the transfer.

It is extremely rare to have the gearbox fill the transfer. I would say the seal was probably non existent in that case, not just worn.

mkpatrol wrote:
Mmm, I have never seen one go the other way. They always drain the transfer and overfill the gearbox. The gearbox fill plug is higher than the transfer plug hence the tube being effective by using gravity to drain the oil back to the transfer.

It is extremely rare to have the gearbox fill the transfer. I would say the seal was probably non existent in that case, not just worn.

I've got a trailer and undercarriage covered in oil that says otherwise.

All fixed now, we pulled out the transfer case and replaced the seal in the middle. You are correct, the seal in mine was cactus but it just proves that the oil transfer problem is not always one way, has multiple causes and reasons why it does it, and the balance tube may or may not necessarily be the right option. And if it's the wrong option and you forget to check the levels because you think you're ok because you have the tube in there then you can destroy your gearbox.

OP, it sounds like you are just losing oil and not transferring it. Do you have oil all over the rear of the underside of the car? Try parking on a decent hill and see if it is leaking from the pinion seal, selector input seal, breather, PTO port cover gasket.

Tighten the two or three long bolts in the region of the oil leak.

From memory, there are two bolts that join the transfer case to the gearbox up the top, and go through the fifth gear housing.

Mine worked lose several times and oil goes everywhere. If you drop the gearbox support beam, and let the GB/TC down carefully on a trolley jack, you can get to these bolts easier. Remove them, coat them in lock tight and do them back up. With any luck you've not broken the gasket too.

Tim

Tim HJ61 wrote:Tighten the two or three long bolts in the region of the oil leak.

From memory, there are two bolts that join the transfer case to the gearbox up the top, and go through the fifth gear housing.

Mine worked lose several times and oil goes everywhere. If you drop the gearbox support beam, and let the GB/TC down carefully on a trolley jack, you can get to these bolts easier. Remove them, coat them in lock tight and do them back up. With any luck you've not broken the gasket too.

Tim

Tim,
Did as you suggested and I rekon you were spot on. The bolts around the top side of the TC were loose. Got at least a full turn on them. Also nipped up all others.

Havnt taken it for a drive since tightening these as Im waiting for a replacement Rear Diff centre. Had the K082 am waiting on delivery of a K085. Hopefully by this time next week I will know for sure.

In my old FJ45 i replaced the idler gear - the 2-gear single piece gear - this was 12-13 years ago - by removing the floor pan (big suckers on the pre 80 models?? mine was 79') and leaving the gearbox in, and removing the transfer. i had a mate help me install it. Drove it from Ulladulla (NSW South Coast) to NSW/VIC border, and noticed pleny oil coming up under my tray, all over the rear diff. Had to top it up twice to get me home.
Turned out, when my mate put the gearbox output shaft cover back on (the cone shaped cover) he had folded one corner of the gasket over - resulting in a massive leak.
It was pretty straight forward to remove the transfer, no crane, just 4 arms (pulled it out by myself, 2 of us to put it in) but the large removable floor pan certainly made a big difference.
And i dd end up running the hose, oil levels were always ok.

Rob

Stackson45 wrote:In my old FJ45 i replaced the idler gear - the 2-gear single piece gear - this was 12-13 years ago - by removing the floor pan (big suckers on the pre 80 models?? mine was 79') and leaving the gearbox in, and removing the transfer. i had a mate help me install it. Drove it from Ulladulla (NSW South Coast) to NSW/VIC border, and noticed pleny oil coming up under my tray, all over the rear diff. Had to top it up twice to get me home.
Turned out, when my mate put the gearbox output shaft cover back on (the cone shaped cover) he had folded one corner of the gasket over - resulting in a massive leak.
It was pretty straight forward to remove the transfer, no crane, just 4 arms (pulled it out by myself, 2 of us to put it in) but the large removable floor pan certainly made a big difference.
And i dd end up running the hose, oil levels were always ok.

Rob

are you talking about a 1 piece transfer on early 40/42/45series? these should be pretty easy to remove.

all 60 series have the split transfer and you have to remove the rear half, pull all the gears etc out, then remove front half

Shadow wrote:

Stackson45 wrote:In my old FJ45 i replaced the idler gear - the 2-gear single piece gear - this was 12-13 years ago - by removing the floor pan (big suckers on the pre 80 models?? mine was 79') and leaving the gearbox in, and removing the transfer. i had a mate help me install it. Drove it from Ulladulla (NSW South Coast) to NSW/VIC border, and noticed pleny oil coming up under my tray, all over the rear diff. Had to top it up twice to get me home.
Turned out, when my mate put the gearbox output shaft cover back on (the cone shaped cover) he had folded one corner of the gasket over - resulting in a massive leak.
It was pretty straight forward to remove the transfer, no crane, just 4 arms (pulled it out by myself, 2 of us to put it in) but the large removable floor pan certainly made a big difference.
And i dd end up running the hose, oil levels were always ok.

Rob

are you talking about a 1 piece transfer on early 40/42/45series? these should be pretty easy to remove.

all 60 series have the split transfer and you have to remove the rear half, pull all the gears etc out, then remove front half

yeah it must be that - i only ever played with the boxes on my old ute, never had any later model boxes apart. It was fairly simple to do.