Outer Limits 4x4 Board

G'day there,
I have a gu patrol with ls1, I have always hated the lack of torque. I have 4.3 diffs and 35s
In order of trying to gain more torque I went to 4b fabrications in carrum downs to change the cam and heads.
It gained a lot more torque and power but still extremely disappointed.
I recently just finished traveling half of Australia towing a 800kg camper and without hanging shit on the car it did it terribly. Ofcourse it's ok on flat ground, but any incline and your backwards in gears.
Fuel economy without towing is 15l to 100.
Traveling Round I averaged 19.7 sitting on 95kph.
There is absolutly nothing down low, the POS doesn't get of its ass until about 4000rpm.
I am very concerned because one day I would like to get a big caravan. This car will not tow it. It's not even an option unless some way some how I can get some serious low down go.
My previous car was a td42 gq with a lot of work, making 760nm torque.
I thought buying a v8 would be going up the chain. But I was stupid to think so.
Can any one sugest ideas. Are supercharges worth there money.
Keeping in mind all I want is low down torque
Or stroker kits
Or do these mods just suck the fuel up and give little performance.
Am I better to cut my losses and buy a 200series or something?

More info. Manual or auto? I had a GU with a LS1, Towing 800kg it used to fly. Whats the hp output currently?

215rwkw on 35s dyno in 3rd gear.
1053nm torque also in 3rd gear.

Manuel gearbox

If its manual, why are you dynoing it in 3rd? 4th 1:1.

you need to cam it and dial it in for low down torque. this will drop your HP numbers down but it will give you useful torque where you need it. about 2000rpm

most engine builders will sell you alot more torque and HP and when its installed it will give you that, but too high in the revrange and its useless in a patrol unless you are racing.

for torque you need smaller runners in the head and a cam that will give you alot of torque at around 2500 rpm.

Jes

THE-Burger-Ring wrote:G'day there,
I have a gu patrol with ls1, I have always hated the lack of torque. I have 4.3 diffs and 35s
In order of trying to gain more torque I went to 4b fabrications in carrum downs to change the cam and heads.
It gained a lot more torque and power but still extremely disappointed.
I recently just finished traveling half of Australia towing a 800kg camper and without hanging shit on the car it did it terribly. Ofcourse it's ok on flat ground, but any incline and your backwards in gears.
Fuel economy without towing is 15l to 100.
Traveling Round I averaged 19.7 sitting on 95kph.
There is absolutly nothing down low, the POS doesn't get of its ass until about 4000rpm.
I am very concerned because one day I would like to get a big caravan. This car will not tow it. It's not even an option unless some way some how I can get some serious low down go.
My previous car was a td42 gq with a lot of work, making 760nm torque.
I thought buying a v8 would be going up the chain. But I was stupid to think so.
Can any one sugest ideas. Are supercharges worth there money.
Keeping in mind all I want is low down torque
Or stroker kits
Or do these mods just suck the fuel up and give little performance.
Am I better to cut my losses and buy a 200series or something?

4b fabrications specialise in this stuff. They recommended my cam and heads all suited for low down torque.
It has a lot more then standard pos ls1.
But still terrible.
Am I wasting my time trying to better it?
Would a good auto box better it.
Or?

TheBigBoy wrote:If its manual, why are you dynoing it in 3rd? 4th 1:1.

I don't know mate why it was dynod in 3rd, I join pieces of pipe together not tune cars
And if you go from 32inch wheels to 35inch wheels it can't be 1:1 gear ratio can it.
Maybe that had something to do with it.
It besides the point anyway, I want to know if I am wasting my time with this motor to get more torque out of it.

You could supercherge it - ls2+ bigger cubes std usually give you more torque . I don't think a auto would help at all you'd prob end up pouring fuel on the thing and walkin away lol

I would like to speak to people who have gone down the supercharger idea. It's a lot of money to outlay that comes without a lot of questions marks.
Are they like a airconditioner where it sucks the hell out of the motor.?

Search for cranky cruiser. Lc80 Ute chop running ls1 plus super charger.

THE-Burger-Ring wrote:4b fabrications specialise in this stuff. They recommended my cam and heads all suited for low down torque.
It has a lot more then standard pos ls1.
But still terrible.
Am I wasting my time trying to better it?
Would a good auto box better it.
Or?

if the power is coming on at 4000rpm their " specialisation" is not very special.

auto multiplys the torque but if there isnt much to multiply cruising at 2000rpm would be a problem with your setup.

i think take your truck with your cam and head specs to a engine builder not a 4wd workshop and have a talk.

its about of a last ditch thing but Also you can look at increasing your flywheel mass for more low down torque aswell

but i really think with the right heads and cam and tune you would be making gobs of low down power ( it may be as simple as retarding cam timing in your setup)

JEs

You might be right, the place is actually called 4b fabrications and performance tuning.
They built my motor.
Here is the address
http://www.4bfabrications.com.au/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Have you gone back and had a talk with Joel and said that your still not happy

He knows his stuff so it seems odd that he would have done a cam that wasn't what you wanted

A cam and heads package will net you 450hp and bucket loads of torque. Either your expectations are too high. Or something isnt right.

"215rwkw on 35s dyno in 3rd gear.
1053nm torque also in 3rd gear."

If this is after your cam and heads, then something definately isnt right. Mine made 320rwhp in the end, stock, rebuilt with a maffless tune. And being run in 3rd will fudge the numbers and make them look higher.

Those figures are after rebuild yes. And all in 3rd gear. It definetly has a lot more torque then standard. But maybe your right, expectations could be a bit high, my understanding of bucket loads of torque would be my old td42 760nm.
I read over a lot of cranky cruiser build thread but I can't find any torque figures at all.
Does anyone know him, I would love to pm him.

I told Joel I was pretty disappointed with it and he said the only way to get real torque figures are stroking it or blower.

Joel does have a pretty rep for this sort of work, but it never hurts to get a second opinion.

HAve you driven any other LS1 patrols?, yours might not be that bad, but atleast you would have a better idea on what acceptable.

Gearing plays a BIG part in how a car feels, go to 4.6's or even 4.88's , i know every one bangs on about the low power of a RB30et in a patrol, but get the gearing right and they fly

Keep in mind though that the GU would weigh closer to 3t than 2, so that is a lot of mass to get up and going, hard to compare a comp truck to a family wagon, if i even win Lotto, it will be a GU with a Duramax, THAT should have plenty of torque

I have a mate with the same car with same motor and cam but original heads
Same gearing and wheels.
Mine puts out noticeable more torque then his but we are both disgusted in these things.
I started this thread as a last hope thing.
I take it there isn't much we can do for these motors,I went over cranky cruisers thread. His torque figures with supercharger didn't impress me at all comparing his before and after figures.
I think I will just keep duramax dreaming myself lol.

I would try and find a lower diff ratio and try that , it wont fix it but it may make it livable for you

It will definatly be the next cheapest option any way, but i would really go have a chat with Joel, i don't know him, but i have heard good things.

I have never understood the LS1 facination into a Patrol myself.

Bit off topic sorry, but a interesting post earlier mentioned increasing flywheel mass to help low down torque.
I am curious how a flywheel produces torque?

Marty

I have put a lot of thought into 4.88 diffs.
But it also requires me to put .74 overdrive 5th gear in just to keep the same highway driving.
Then ontop of all that, I don't have much faith in putting a smaller 5th gear in because I have already smashed the genuine one which is bigge.
Just seems like a lot of work and money for a result which may or may not be good enough.
That fly wheel mass thing sounds interesting I have never heard that.
I have Spoken to a few engine builders and they all told me the ls1 is only a rev hard motor that produces nothing down low.
I just refused to believe them I think. I mean 8cylinders... Surely you can get that going better then a 6cylinder.
And yet I can't seem to get it anywhere near close to the old GQ

cranky fitted a centrifugal supercharger if i remember correctly, not really made for that ball tearing torque that you get with a positive displacement blower, specially down low in the rev range. however, PD blowers tend to use more fuel as the engine is always boosting where a centi has a sort of boost curve. i am putting a centi on my clubsport as i have been talking to a few people who are snapping axles etc. with PD blowers, i also do a shit load of highway kays and having the fuel economy is still important.

bigboy, who did your tuning? my LS2 clubsport only got 380rwhp after a cam, full exhaust and OTR intake... those are good numbers from a patrol and mine will need a tune soon......

marty wrote:Bit off topic sorry, but a interesting post earlier mentioned increasing flywheel mass to help low down torque.
I am curious how a flywheel produces torque?

Marty

basically rotating flywheel mass gives you torque, at a sacrifice of HP because engine is working harder to spin the weight.

If you have ever lightened the flywheel and not changes anything else you will instantly feel the engine revs quicker but does not have the same amount of " pull"

ill try explaining it like this , get a 1m piece of rope and tie a tennis ball to the end and spin it around in a circle, it will be easy to spin fast, momentum will build quickly but it carries no significant centrifigual force.

now attach say a 1kg weight to the end of the rope and swing it around, the initial momentum will be slower but it will have much more " force" when its spinning .

JEs

THE-Burger-Ring wrote:4b fabrications specialise in this stuff. They recommended my cam and heads all suited for low down torque.
It has a lot more then standard pos ls1.
But still terrible.
Am I wasting my time trying to better it?
Would a good auto box better it.
Or?

They are well know for some stuff but LS1 tuning isnt their strength. Take the car to Chev's performance http://www.chevsperformance.com.au/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What was the cam spec? When you say they did the head..they did what exactly?

There are still many shops that think bolting on some parts will get you what you want but find the opposite is true.

BTW, throw a set of 32=33" wheel on there and take it for a spin and see what the difference is.

chunderlicious wrote:cranky fitted a centrifugal supercharger if i remember correctly, not really made for that ball tearing torque that you get with a positive displacement blower, specially down low in the rev range. however, PD blowers tend to use more fuel as the engine is always boosting where a centi has a sort of boost curve. i am putting a centi on my clubsport as i have been talking to a few people who are snapping axles etc. with PD blowers, i also do a shit load of highway kays and having the fuel economy is still important.

bigboy, who did your tuning? my LS2 clubsport only got 380rwhp after a cam, full exhaust and OTR intake... those are good numbers from a patrol and mine will need a tune soon......

PD blowers are NOT always boosting. In fact when cruising they can use LESS fuel than a not blown engine. Do some research on bypass valves. ALL modern PD, screw and roots blowers have used this for years.

A centi blower will snap axles the same as a PD. The difference is the PD makes power from just off idle, the centi a lot higher up and is more a blower for high RPM (kinda like a belt driven turbo) and they are harder to keep on boost. They have no bypass but there is no boost at idle/cruising speeds as they are not as efficient.

My money is still on the tune though or the wrong cam (4000rpm is WRONG). You want low end not top end

jessie928 wrote:

marty wrote:Bit off topic sorry, but a interesting post earlier mentioned increasing flywheel mass to help low down torque.
I am curious how a flywheel produces torque?

Marty

basically rotating flywheel mass gives you torque, at a sacrifice of HP because engine is working harder to spin the weight.

If you have ever lightened the flywheel and not changes anything else you will instantly feel the engine revs quicker but does not have the same amount of " pull"

ill try explaining it like this , get a 1m piece of rope and tie a tennis ball to the end and spin it around in a circle, it will be easy to spin fast, momentum will build quickly but it carries no significant centrifigual force.

now attach say a 1kg weight to the end of the rope and swing it around, the initial momentum will be slower but it will have much more " force" when its spinning .

JEs

Hmmm okay that isn't right.
The engine makes the torque and the flywheel just stores a bit of energy.
A larger flywheel will just store more energy and take more power to run.
As in your tennis ball vs 1kg weight thing above.
The energy stored is not torque.
My GU ute with the 11kg aluminium flywheel and twin plate clutch in it which was 17kg lighter than a standard setup was leaps and bound better than a standard type setup every were except try to take off at idle.

Marty

marty wrote:

jessie928 wrote:

marty wrote:Bit off topic sorry, but a interesting post earlier mentioned increasing flywheel mass to help low down torque.
I am curious how a flywheel produces torque?

Marty

basically rotating flywheel mass gives you torque, at a sacrifice of HP because engine is working harder to spin the weight.

If you have ever lightened the flywheel and not changes anything else you will instantly feel the engine revs quicker but does not have the same amount of " pull"

ill try explaining it like this , get a 1m piece of rope and tie a tennis ball to the end and spin it around in a circle, it will be easy to spin fast, momentum will build quickly but it carries no significant centrifigual force.

now attach say a 1kg weight to the end of the rope and swing it around, the initial momentum will be slower but it will have much more " force" when its spinning .

JEs

Hmmm okay that isn't right.
The engine makes the torque and the flywheel just stores a bit of energy.
A larger flywheel will just store more energy and take more power to run.
As in your tennis ball vs 1kg weight thing above.
The energy stored is not torque.
My GU ute with the 11kg aluminium flywheel and twin plate clutch in it which was 17kg lighter than a standard setup was leaps and bound better than a standard type setup every were except try to take off at idle.

Marty

yeah so u lost low down torque. every part of the reciprocating mass in an engine stores energy

Jes

jessie928 wrote:

marty wrote:

jessie928 wrote:

marty wrote:Bit off topic sorry, but a interesting post earlier mentioned increasing flywheel mass to help low down torque.
I am curious how a flywheel produces torque?

Marty

basically rotating flywheel mass gives you torque, at a sacrifice of HP because engine is working harder to spin the weight.

If you have ever lightened the flywheel and not changes anything else you will instantly feel the engine revs quicker but does not have the same amount of " pull"

ill try explaining it like this , get a 1m piece of rope and tie a tennis ball to the end and spin it around in a circle, it will be easy to spin fast, momentum will build quickly but it carries no significant centrifigual force.

now attach say a 1kg weight to the end of the rope and swing it around, the initial momentum will be slower but it will have much more " force" when its spinning .

JEs

Hmmm okay that isn't right.
The engine makes the torque and the flywheel just stores a bit of energy.
A larger flywheel will just store more energy and take more power to run.
As in your tennis ball vs 1kg weight thing above.
The energy stored is not torque.
My GU ute with the 11kg aluminium flywheel and twin plate clutch in it which was 17kg lighter than a standard setup was leaps and bound better than a standard type setup every were except try to take off at idle.

Marty

yeah so u lost low down torque. every part of the reciprocating mass in an engine stores energy

Jes

Sorry for being off topic.

No I lost no low down torque, the engine still made the exact same.
It simple had less rotating mass to keep it turning over.
Flywheels do not produce or add torque.

Marty

Hey mate its not worth stroking it u will use way more fuel but there will be power there. And supercharge u just spent around 14k and made around 150 horse if your lucky. I wish my ls1 was gettin 19/100 on highway. I brought a ss Ute nd was going drop the motor into my hilux. Yours should be Putin out more power then that even though u have 35s on it.

jamiehead wrote: I wish my ls1 was gettin 19/100 on highway.

My turbo 4.0L Maverick is getting that towing my camper. Accelerates up any hill......

You want torque, then you will have to have some sort of forced induction. If you're worried about fuel economy, then you should've done the 6.5L diesel conversion instead of the shit petrol one......IMHO......

Daz

jamiehead wrote:Hey mate its not worth stroking it u will use way more fuel but there will be power there. And supercharge u just spent around 14k and made around 150 horse if your lucky. I wish my ls1 was gettin 19/100 on highway. I brought a ss Ute nd was going drop the motor into my hilux. Yours should be Putin out more power then that even though u have 35s on it.

shit, my ls2 auto clubby gets 9l/100km and ive got an aftermarket cam and at the moment a pretty crap tune.

saying it is always boosting was a miss wording, however i still feel that the PD blowers seem/feel (i havent seen graphs just driven cars) to have more torque, ALOT more torque than a centi and the trouble the 2 blokes i spoke to said was when doing a skid/ hard take off and getting too much traction straight up just didnt end up fun for the axles, although ive now found out one was on the side of the road, one wheel dirt one on bitumen.... amateurs lol

i also agree, cam is wrong..... so is the fact they used 5th gear