Outer Limits 4x4 Board

I'm wanting to get a winch but it seems I have to get a bar too which costs another load of cash and extra unwanted weight on the front and something I didnt really want.
So can I fit a winch using a mounting plate without the bar, and will it be legal? I couldn't find anything on Vicroads that specifically states that a winch must be fitted with a bullbar.

?

The simple answer is yes but the mount will have to be ADR compliant. Cars like the Discovery 3/4 and RRS have them as and OEM option.

Garry

Well thats a nice bit of news. You wouldn't happen to have a link for the ADR compliance rules?

Nope but if the vehicle is old it may not be relevant.

The ADR's concerned, regardless of age of vehicle will be to do with "Protrusions".

If it is outside the bumper area it would not comply, but if everything was tucked in behind it will be ok.

What type of vehicle is it going on?

Cheers
David

Landcruiser factory winches are generally inside the standard bumper with a mounting plate and a plastic cover over the front when not in use.

hulsty wrote:Landcruiser factory winches are generally inside the standard bumper with a mounting plate and a plastic cover over the front when not in use.

Which model/year Landcruiser?

XTREME MMM wrote:The ADR's concerned, regardless of age of vehicle will be to do with "Protrusions".

If it is outside the bumper area it would not comply, but if everything was tucked in behind it will be ok.

What type of vehicle is it going on?

Cheers
David

I dont think it will fit behind the bumper. It's a gu patrol.

see if you can mount it as far inboard as you can. as previously mentioned its all about protrusion and pedestrian safety.
hey you may be able to space the bumper 10ml or more out ?
mount it real good though your car could be hanging off it ?
i made my own bumper / bull bar to fit my winch .

bananas wrote:Well thats a nice bit of news. You wouldn't happen to have a link for the ADR compliance rules?

ADR42/04, it talks about sharp edges and protrusions. The intent is that there is nothing sharp that may cause extra harm to a person in the event of a collision.

Being mounted forward of the bumper may not be a non compliance as long as it doesnt cause extra harm.

Its available on the web, google is your mate.

the imported safari gq's have a factory pto winch with a 'nudge' style bar rather than a fully blown bull bar. could that be an option for you?

lepa

bananas wrote:

XTREME MMM wrote:The ADR's concerned, regardless of age of vehicle will be to do with "Protrusions".

If it is outside the bumper area it would not comply, but if everything was tucked in behind it will be ok.

What type of vehicle is it going on?

Cheers
David

I dont think it will fit behind the bumper. It's a gu patrol.

If you have a GU then you can fit it no worries.
The winch mounts between the chassis rails on a cradle.
TJM and Tigrez11 sell the cradles. I have the TJM one.

Next question, does it have an air bag?

Skegbudley wrote:

bananas wrote:

XTREME MMM wrote:The ADR's concerned, regardless of age of vehicle will be to do with "Protrusions".

If it is outside the bumper area it would not comply, but if everything was tucked in behind it will be ok.

What type of vehicle is it going on?

Cheers
David

I dont think it will fit behind the bumper. It's a gu patrol.

If you have a GU then you can fit it no worries.
The winch mounts between the chassis rails on a cradle.
TJM and Tigrez11 sell the cradles. I have the TJM one.

Correct they do, but what do you mount the fair lead too?

And as per last post, does it have an airbag?

Cheers
David

XTREME MMM wrote:Next question, does it have an air bag?

It has airbags.

I remember when the 4.8 GU first came out. Someone from Vic, who was totally anal about weight. He fitted a lowmount winch behind the bumper on a 4.8lt GU.
He used one of the winch cradles available at the time. It may have been made by Brawn.

bananas wrote:

XTREME MMM wrote:Next question, does it have an air bag?

It has airbags.

I would now think that you would not be allowed to add anything that is not airbag compatable to the front of the vehicle.

So why not be like everyone else and just fit an airbag compatable bar

Cheers
David

This is the aftermarket fit on a Disco 3

[IMG]http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e334/ ... d0b43e.jpg[/IMG]


This is the OEM fit on a Disco. The OEM is not as good as the aftermarket

[img]http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e334/ ... 0625bc.jpg[/img]


Hmmm - I go on about 30 forums all up and have no problems putting up pics - but not this one.

XTREME MMM wrote:
So why not be like everyone else

Must.....hold back.........comment......


Fark, so much i could say

rockcrawler31 wrote:

XTREME MMM wrote:
So why not be like everyone else

Must.....hold back.........comment......


Fark, so much i could say

I was waiting for that one

XTREME MMM wrote:

bananas wrote:

XTREME MMM wrote:Next question, does it have an air bag?

It has airbags.

I would now think that you would not be allowed to add anything that is not airbag compatable to the front of the vehicle.

Depends on where the vehicle picks up the crash signal from. If it is just shock sensor underneath the centre console then it doesnt really matter what is on the front of the vehicle. If there are sensors at the front then there may be issues.

mkpatrol wrote:

XTREME MMM wrote:

bananas wrote:

XTREME MMM wrote:Next question, does it have an air bag?

It has airbags.

I would now think that you would not be allowed to add anything that is not airbag compatable to the front of the vehicle.

Depends on where the vehicle picks up the crash signal from. If it is just shock sensor underneath the centre console then it doesnt really matter what is on the front of the vehicle. If there are sensors at the front then there may be issues.

Regardless of where they are you must comply with ADR requirements for airbagged vehicle, that is why bull bars have to be airbag compatable. So by adding anything to the front must be compatiable.

XTREME MMM wrote:
Regardless of where they are you must comply with ADR requirements for airbagged vehicle, that is why bull bars have to be airbag compatable. So by adding anything to the front must be compatiable.

Not disagreeing with you at all but you must understand the ADRs before a judgement can be made.

Air bags are not compulsory items. Air bags are the easiest way for a vehicle manufacturer to meet the standard. ADRs 69, 72 and 73 measure impact damage and forces on the dummy (human...) and as you know vehicles are fitted with crumple zones to mitigate this damage. The last link in the chain is the airbag to stop the occupants from hitting things inside the cabin.

So, fitting a bull bar or anything to a vehicle, regardless of if it is air bag compatible or not, could affect this protection. On the note of air bag compatible bull bars, I am unaware of any bull bar manufacturer actually crashing a vehicle to see what affect their bull bar has on the OEM occupant protection. If they did, it means they have crashed every model of vehicle they make a bullbar for. A quick google has revealed that Smart Bar have done some testing but on the bars themselves, not attached to a vehicle. There may be mor info out there and I am happy to see it if it is availiable.

The other thing, ADR69 doesnt apply to NA2 category vehicles (commenrcials such as Hiluxes) with a GVM of over 2.7t. It does apply to all MC category (passenger wagons) from 1 January 1998.

ADR72 does not apply to passenger vehicles with an R point (a measured point of where the hip joint is on the seat) of more than 700mm (most 4WDs).

ADR73 is no appliccable to any MC or NA vehicle (4WD wagon or ute).

All these three ADRs are the current occupant protection ADRs.

So, depending on the year model or category of the vehicle it doesnt matter other than for protrusions from ADR42. If it can be proven that an addition will affect the occupant protection in a vehicle then no, it would not be allowed but at this stage I dont think anybody really knows how a bullbar, nudge bar or anything else will affect that protection.

If it happens be proven that things such as bull bars do affect that protection then that is a pandoras box.

I suspect that the impact is low as we would be hearing from the authorities who srape these things off the road talking about this more often but at the moment all they seem to be concerned about with these things is not causing any more damage than neccesary to a pedestrian should they happen to be hit on the road.

The other ADR is ADR13, lighting but I suspect what the OP is thinking of doing is not going to obscure the lights at all.

Sorry, I will add, if the sensors are in the front then regardless of an ADR, an addition to the front of the vehicle could affect the performance of an airbag. For the ones fitted in the middle of the floor, not so much as they measure the shock as well as the decelleration (they are all slightly different).

Air bags use an accelerometer to trigger it. It can be located any where but it will usually be inside the vehicle, in the air bag control module (ecu). They sense the actual change in velocity of the vehicle, so it's performance is not impacted by any additional weight or structural support added to the vehicle (be it on the front, or inside or the back and so on).

Actually acceleration is proportional to mass. As mass increases, acceleration decreases. That's why trucks just plow through cars and other things and the driver survives.

It is irrelevant where the sensor is located, they are not a pressure sensor, they are an accelerometer.

The accelerometer detects the de-celeration of the vehicle in three directions. it then decides if the impact force is sufficient, to deploy the correct airbags.

If you have a big hunk of steel directly attached to your chassis, this will be very strong and will pass the impact force directly into the chassis, and then the body etc.

An airbag must deploy within 30milliseconds of the initial impact, otherwise the occupant could hit the steering wheel before it deploys fully!

So if you have no crumple zone at the front of your vehicle (bumper bar, airbag compatible bullbar, etc) then the airbag will probably go off in every accident!

Even very small accidents have a very high contact force. It just dissipates very quickly and is usually absorbed completely by the bumper bar, which in alot of minor accidents hardly marks the bumper bar.

By having some crumple zone it gives a buffer so that the initial impact force is absorbed by the front of the vehicle, and if the force then spikes above the set points, the airbag will deploy.

So if you have a winch mounted to the chassis, sitting just behind the bumper bar, then your going to be replacing your airbags every tiny accident.

Yah, I understand all that. My Pathfinder has them under the drivers seat, passenger seat & the console. Its the more traditional way but newer vehicles are now starting to have sensors in the front of the car that prepare a car for the accident before the impact, not at the point of impact.

Admittedly this is the high end stuff ATM but it will filter down eventually but my post wasn't really about the operation of the airbags, more on how the ADRs are affected with the modification mentioned.

Always three sensors at least for airbags, a primary and two secondaries, system will need the primary and at least one secondary to be triggered before the crash is really a crash and not just a faulty sensor. (well it was when I did airbags a few years ago at trade school anyway)

And as someone said, anything added to the front needs to be airbag compatible, otherwise it will deploy the airbags when you have a minor collision, getting rid of the crumple zones will increase the deceleration forces of the impact, and set the bags of early. Airbag compatible bars will usually have either a compressible section on the mount, or elongated holes bolted together that slide in impact, simulating crumple zones.

And also:

Air bags are not compulsory items.

true, not compulsory (I think they are now) but if fitted to the model variant from the factory, I understand they need to be retained.

Back to the original question, if the winch cradles are mass production, I imagine they would be certified for airbag equipped vehicles, and wouldnt be a problem. Supplier would be able to tell you for sure.

Hilux_Ryan wrote:Always three sensors at least for airbags, a primary and two secondaries, system will need the primary and at least one secondary to be triggered before the crash is really a crash and not just a faulty sensor. (well it was when I did airbags a few years ago at trade school anyway)

And as someone said, anything added to the front needs to be airbag compatible, otherwise it will deploy the airbags when you have a minor collision, getting rid of the crumple zones will increase the deceleration forces of the impact, and set the bags of early. Airbag compatible bars will usually have either a compressible section on the mount, or elongated holes bolted together that slide in impact, simulating crumple zones.

And also:

Air bags are not compulsory items.

true, not compulsory (I think they are now) but if fitted to the model variant from the factory, I understand they need to be retained.

Back to the original question, if the winch cradles are mass production, I imagine they would be certified for airbag equipped vehicles, and wouldnt be a problem. Supplier would be able to tell you for sure.

On the airbag compatible thing, I have never actually seen any tests to see what affect they have, it would be interesting to see if there are any differences between a non bull bar equipped vehicle and a bull bar equipped vehicle.

You are right on the continuing compliance thing, while none of the occupant protection ADRs actually mandate airbags, if the vehicle has been tested and passed to a particular ADR then it needs to keep the equipment that it was tested with to remain roadworthy.

If the airbags are there but the vehicle doesn't have to meet any of the ADRs it would be arguable that if they were removed or things added to the front the vehicle would still remain roadworthy. I know what the states would say though, if it was fitted as standard, then it still needs to be there and really, you would have to have rocks in your head to disable/remove them.

Maybe I should just contact a lawyer and ask for a legal standing.

If you cant fit a winch plate by itself legally, how can you fit one simply because it comes with the bullbar.
How does a winch plate for a bullbar differ from a plate by itself?

And how much does the average steel bullbar weigh?