Outer Limits 4x4 Board

hey guys and gals, its come time to look for a TMIC for my turbo-ed 2H,
do i want water to air? air to air? and how big do i need to go?
would love to hear from people that have done it.

thanks in advance

-Pyro

Why top mount? heat soak can be an issue, air flow can be a problem

FMIC air to air for simplicity and lowest cost and great bang for buck.
Suitable for everyday use, slight disadvantage for low speed high boost stuff due to reliance on airflow. A good engine fan will help, or add a thermo fan to help for slow speed offroad use.
Water to air are more complicated, cost more and more shit to go wrong, Still reliant on air flow, but will cope with slow speed offroad stuff a little better.

Which ever way you go, bigger is better. Stuff in the biggest cooler you can fit in the space available with careful planning of pipework to eliminate excess bends or restricitons

air to air all the way.

water to air is just another complication, potentially lethal to your motor if it leaks

What boost are you running?

I will say that with a front mount you need to make sure your not restricting the radiatior. 2H turbo's can get hot as is.

was looking at top mount purely for simplicity, its mainly going to be a daily driver, mild-ish offroad and eventual tow pig
it is an old AiResearch (Garret) turbo. Split pulse .82 A/R exhaust housing (T4 style flange) with a 0.82 A/R Compressor. No idea on wheel trim or anything. The manifold is set up to match the split pulse exhaust housing, and has an external wastegate.

here are a few shots of it in situ





i believe the waste gate is set at about 8PSI

Sounds very similiar to my old set-up Garret T4 external gate big sucker of a turbo but just how i liked it. Came on fucking hard albeit late. It was good because you poke around without getting on boost then if you want to get up it went like the clappers. Right until it put a hole in the piston. But that probably abuse more than anything.

hahaha, sounds like I'm on a winner then, i can't wait to test her out, the motor was rebuilt about 2000K ago, not sure if it was a complete rebuild or not as i bought it from a guy who bought it from a guy..

might take it to an intercooler shop and see what they suggest

i will be putting a scoop in the bonnet, so that should help with airflow for a TMIC. i may just have to put some insulation between the engine and cooler

If you are going to use it as a tow rig go as big as you can in a front mount, they are allot easier to fit and as others have said before hit sink will be a issue and a pretty big one when you are towing good size weights for long hauls.

Mark.

Just to clarify. A good WTA will kill the front mount in every way (performance wise).

TheBigBoy wrote:Just to clarify. A good WTA will kill the front mount in every way (performance wise).

I totally agree but a good WTA would cost a good amount more as well.

Mark.

Absolutely. Comes back to the old saying "you get what you pay for". If you you way up the actual data/pro's and cons its far far superior.

Maybe, but $1000 will buy you good quality in everything you need for FMIC, but wouldn't come close to setting up a bare basics WTA system.

Bang for buck, FMIC wins hands down every day of the week.

I guess it really depends on the application (engine/boost/use). Front mounts do add more stress to the engines cooling system.

TheBigBoy wrote:I guess it really depends on the application (engine/boost/use). Front mounts do add more stress to the engines cooling system.

A w2a intercooler still has a radiator in front, and is still dumping the same amount of heat there.

Actually no they don't. The WTA radiator is thinner with thermals - far less air drag. Then measure the air temps from the back of both (the air temp that's entering the engine radiator). The water is only 10-15' above ambient, so the air temp from the back of that rad is only going to be the same. The front mount restrict a lot more flow. Say you have 110' entering and 55' leaving. That air temp has to go somewhere.

TheBigBoy wrote:Actually no they don't. The WTA radiator is thinner with thermals - far less air drag. Then measure the air temps from the back of both (the air temp that's entering the engine radiator). The water is only 10-15' above ambient, so the air temp from the back of that rad is only going to be the same. The front mount restrict a lot more flow. Say you have 110' entering and 55' leaving. That air temp has to go somewhere.

For both systems, they are dumping the heat infront of the radiator. 1 + 1 = 2...

The w2a radiator is probably less air restriction infront of the radiator, but a good front mount intercooler is not that big a restriction to air flow.

The w2a setup is probably much better, but is much more complicated and much more expensive.

The reality is that most people waste alot of money, thousands, on intercoolers etc, when they should have just started with a better engine.

A core near twice as thick has far more restriction. The louvers design plays a part aswell. And the WTA is dumping far less heat = less stress on engines cooling system. This difference may not be as great above 80kph (maximum efficiency). But slower speeds with more load (load, slow in soft sand) there is a huge difference. The front mount is blocking direct air flow, and the air the cooling system is getting from it is very hot indeed. Which was the basis of our discussion. When you start really looking into it and results. A good WTA is so much better, it's not even funny. And are PERFECT for turbo diesels.

I disagree with engine swap comment. Depending on your final power results. You are always much better to power up the engine you already have. And great numbers are achievable from all the TD landcruiser engines, aswell as safe and reliable.

TheBigBoy wrote:A core near twice as thick has far more restriction. The louvers design plays a part aswell. And the WTA is dumping far less heat = less stress on engines cooling system. This difference may not be as great above 80kph (maximum efficiency). But slower speeds with more load (load, slow in soft sand) there is a huge difference. The front mount is blocking direct air flow, and the air the cooling system is getting from it is very hot indeed. Which was the basis of our discussion. When you start really looking into it and results. A good WTA is so much better, it's not even funny. And are PERFECT for turbo diesels.

I disagree with engine swap comment. Depending on your final power results. You are always much better to power up the engine you already have. And great numbers are achievable from all the TD landcruiser engines, aswell as safe and reliable.

so this WTA system is magically making heat dissapear?

The temperature isn't there to begin with. Water cools far better. The WTA post intercooler intake air temperature is the same temperature (with in a few degrees) of the water leaving the intercooler. This is with a good intercooler, this is not the case with some WTA units out there. Post air temp - 15' above ambient = post water temp 15' above ambient. So the radiator is only trying to cool that 15'.

A good WTA could well work, personally i'm not convinced though. A poor or average WTA could also spell the end of your engine, very easily. Go the ATA!

SCANAS wrote:A good WTA could well work, personally i'm not convinced though. A poor or average WTA could also spell the end of your engine, very easily. Go the ATA!

I'll convince you . 98% (best) - 77% (worst) efficiency rating, 27psi with a 2.2psi pressure drop. And your right. I wouldn't ever put a Chinese core on my engine. But a well made high density core will not have any issues ever.

TheBigBoy wrote:The temperature isn't there to begin with. Water cools far better. The WTA post intercooler intake air temperature is the same temperature (with in a few degrees) of the water leaving the intercooler. This is with a good intercooler, this is not the case with some WTA units out there. Post air temp - 15' above ambient = post water temp 15' above ambient. So the radiator is only trying to cool that 15'.

Heat is a measureable quantity. If you remove 100joules of heat from the intake air, you must dump that 100joules of heat into the air rushing through the front grill of the vehicle, it doesnt matter if its a front mount intercooler or a water to air system.


What your in fact talking about is the much higher specific heat capacity of water compared to air. The water acts as a heat storage which is great for short periods of peak boost and long periods off boost. If your driving sees your turbo on boost for short periods and off boost for significantly longer periods where the water in the w2A system can cool, then you cannot do any better than a w2A system. This is actually how alot of 4wd's are used. My 1HDFTE powered 100 series spends most of its time at about 4psi boost when im crusing at 110. When I hit a hill or sink my foot into the accelerator it jumps to 15.5psi, so in my case a w2A system would be the best system.

You suggested earlier a w2a setup is better for towing, but the reality is that Towing is exactly the situation where a w2a system is not the best solution. The water absorbs the heat from the intake air and increases in temperature until the W2A radiator is capable of removing heat from the water at the same rate. The water reaches a heat soaked equilibrium temperature which is always going to be higher than the equilibrium temperature of a air to air cooler.

At this point the water to air system has absolutely no advantage over a front mount intercooler and is in fact significantly worse since you must perform 5 steps of heat transfer (intake air to alloy to water to alloy to outside air) w2a system. Each step of heat transfer is governed by the laws of enthalpy and the relatively small difference in temperatures of each step make the process inefficient. For rapid heat transfer you need a large temperature differential.

The 3 step front mount intercooler (intake air to alloy to outside air) has only three heat transfer stages and the greatest possible heat differential which improves the rate of heat transfer.

There are many benefits to a water to air system, including the space savings infront of the radiator, the heat soak ability of the water in the system, etc. But there are also flaws, such as complexity, risk of water entering your engine, and its not as efficient in continuous boost applications like towing...

Now, if i wanted to increase the power of my 1HDFTE i would not be spending $1-$2k on a water to air intercooler, i would spend it on a better turbo and a chip. If i am seeking the absolute best performance and money is no object (throwing money away) I would still get a better turbo(ballbearing garret), unichip, custom airbox, 4" snorkel, and possibly a water to air intercooler system, but since toyota already designed my car with room for a front mount, probably just a better bigger front mount intercooler.

lastly, a better turbo matched to your setup is going to be much more efficient than flogging a smaller turbo to do the job, and will introduce much much less heat into the intake air. So this is the only first step anyone should consider.

Currently, we have a 1HDFTE 105 series producing 233rwkw and 950nm.

Your WTA info may have been correct a few years ago. But I assure you, it is not in today's standards. The results I posted earlier is from an 80 series 1HDT run on a dyno at 100% load until all temperatures have stabilised at sustained full boost = 77% efficiency which is the same as towing under the hardest conditions. Theories are fine, results are better.

Shadow wrote:Now, if i wanted to increase the power of my 1HDFTE i would not be spending $1-$2k on a water to air intercooler, i would spend it on a better turbo and a chip. If i am seeking the absolute best performance and money is no object (throwing money away) I would still get a better turbo(ballbearing garret), unichip, custom airbox, 4" snorkel, and possibly a water to air intercooler system, but since toyota already designed my car with room for a front mount, probably just a better bigger front mount intercooler.

lastly, a better turbo matched to your setup is going to be much more efficient than flogging a smaller turbo to do the job, and will introduce much much less heat into the intake air. So this is the only first step anyone should consider.

To add some perspective, the type of intercooler The Big Boy is talking about is around $3.5k, G turbo $2k, plus tuning and other mods such as 4" snorkel, custom airbox, injector mods, injection pump mods.

I agree Shadow, it's a big spend, but then there are pretty impressive power/ torque gains... I would go this route if seeking Duramax style power at a cheaper price.

But I would prefer to get something better bang for buck. Any ideas for a big A2A front mount? I've searched the net- there's the Safari kit for $2k, some little Chinese jobs and thats about it.

I think we are way off track now from the OP's question. But its good to crunch the data. Although it is hard to break people's views on WTA. Until they test and see for themselves.

"I'm getting solid results from this intercooler.

Pushing 35psi through it, I can see air temps coming out of the turbo in excess of 110°C but have never seen the post IC temps hit 40°C. On the highway at 100km/h with a load of camping gear, fuel, water etc, at an ambient of 24°, the post IC temps sit between 28 and 32° with pre IC temps fluctuating between 70 and 80°.

After a long hard run up Cunninghams gap, the IC water temps rose to 39°, but about 2km later had settled back to below 30.
I should add that I do not have the IC radiator thermo's running all the time. I have a control circuit which switches them on at 30° and off again at 27°(I can override this), so perhaps running constantly would yield even better results.

I have had a few, well known intercoolers over the years and was reluctant to try this one, but after having lived with it for a month or so, I'm really happy with the result. This is genuinely a top performing intercooler."


We have tested the front/top mounts, removed and installed these WTA's. If only people tested their current intercoolers for themselves. Most don't, just bolt it on and call it good.

Shadow wrote:

TheBigBoy wrote:The temperature isn't there to begin with. Water cools far better. The WTA post intercooler intake air temperature is the same temperature (with in a few degrees) of the water leaving the intercooler. This is with a good intercooler, this is not the case with some WTA units out there. Post air temp - 15' above ambient = post water temp 15' above ambient. So the radiator is only trying to cool that 15'.

Heat is a measureable quantity. If you remove 100joules of heat from the intake air, you must dump that 100joules of heat into the air rushing through the front grill of the vehicle, it doesnt matter if its a front mount intercooler or a water to air system.


What your in fact talking about is the much higher specific heat capacity of water compared to air. The water acts as a heat storage which is great for short periods of peak boost and long periods off boost. If your driving sees your turbo on boost for short periods and off boost for significantly longer periods where the water in the w2A system can cool, then you cannot do any better than a w2A system. This is actually how alot of 4wd's are used. My 1HDFTE powered 100 series spends most of its time at about 4psi boost when im crusing at 110. When I hit a hill or sink my foot into the accelerator it jumps to 15.5psi, so in my case a w2A system would be the best system.

You suggested earlier a w2a setup is better for towing, but the reality is that Towing is exactly the situation where a w2a system is not the best solution. The water absorbs the heat from the intake air and increases in temperature until the W2A radiator is capable of removing heat from the water at the same rate. The water reaches a heat soaked equilibrium temperature which is always going to be higher than the equilibrium temperature of a air to air cooler.

At this point the water to air system has absolutely no advantage over a front mount intercooler and is in fact significantly worse since you must perform 5 steps of heat transfer (intake air to alloy to water to alloy to outside air) w2a system. Each step of heat transfer is governed by the laws of enthalpy and the relatively small difference in temperatures of each step make the process inefficient. For rapid heat transfer you need a large temperature differential.

The 3 step front mount intercooler (intake air to alloy to outside air) has only three heat transfer stages and the greatest possible heat differential which improves the rate of heat transfer.

There are many benefits to a water to air system, including the space savings infront of the radiator, the heat soak ability of the water in the system, etc. But there are also flaws, such as complexity, risk of water entering your engine, and its not as efficient in continuous boost applications like towing...

Now, if i wanted to increase the power of my 1HDFTE i would not be spending $1-$2k on a water to air intercooler, i would spend it on a better turbo and a chip. If i am seeking the absolute best performance and money is no object (throwing money away) I would still get a better turbo(ballbearing garret), unichip, custom airbox, 4" snorkel, and possibly a water to air intercooler system, but since toyota already designed my car with room for a front mount, probably just a better bigger front mount intercooler.

lastly, a better turbo matched to your setup is going to be much more efficient than flogging a smaller turbo to do the job, and will introduce much much less heat into the intake air. So this is the only first step anyone should consider.

Out of curiosity. Have you ever run boost and temp gauges on your front mount (pre/post) and tested it under as many conditions?

TheBigBoy wrote:Currently, we have a 1HDFTE 105 series producing 233rwkw and 950nm.

.

About the same as the marinised yanmar version then

I don't think anyone can compare to yanmar's. The turbo is absolutely huge and constant endless cooling from fresh water.