Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Ok, one for you tinkers out there (proberly nearly everyone on this forum ).

You have a "vision" of what you want to create with your ride. How do you start to get the info together for creating your Frankenstein (you know, this goes with that).

For example, you want to run engine A with gearbox B to transfer case C and onto diff D. What has to be altered, fabricated, changed etc.

Some on this forum have said "carnt be done" but I think they forgot to tell the guys who run Niva transfer cases in zooks or portals in non volvos\mogs.

Start with nissan GQ.Depends on what you want to do with the car. Ring Marks 4 wheel drive adaptors.

-work out what you want to do with the vehicle, rock, mud etc
-where you want it to go, big$$$ afraid to scratch or mid$$$ rock rash
-what you need to carry in it (gear, fuel and passengers),
-work out how far you want to do trips, long distance tourer, short day trips
-how much do you want to spend
-how good are you on the tools and what equipment do you have available
-finally do you have a massive thumb print. If you do all of the above does not relate to you, so go buy a KIA.

Just work out what you want, ask around to see if its been done before, if it has then your set, if not ring around some of the adapter places to see what they can do for ya.

I wouldnt worry too much abt diffs, as there are lots of places who can cut up a diff and tailshaft to suit any car.

Cory

i thought.......thought some more....asked around.....got confused....

thought some more.....scrapped most plans.....scrapped my thoughts.....




AND JUST BUILT IT!

The most important question is what tires will you run. When you know that build a rig around them.

Was thinking tyres 33", 3.8lt V6, toyota transfer case (with second grafted on), gearbox needs some more thought. Diffs as mentioned are done by lots of places. Money is an issue but spaced out over time is OK. Thumbprint not too bad (better if I space things out and can justify other extras). Scratches, I have to explain quite often "but ther was no other way". Rock rash "well dear thats why I got the lift but with bigger tyres and more power...."

Nev62 wrote:Was thinking tyres 33", 3.8lt V6, toyota transfer case (with second grafted on), gearbox needs some more thought. Diffs as mentioned are done by lots of places. Money is an issue but spaced out over time is OK. Thumbprint not too bad (better if I space things out and can justify others). Scratches, I have to explain quite often. Rock rash "well dear thats way I got the lift but with bigger tyres and more power...."

Is this on the raider you have cool Maybe start with the diffs and suspension

Edit: I called it a courier sorry

yep, on the Raider. At present it has a 55mm body lift and a beefed up rear spring approx 50mm lift. Problem now is the rear tyres look tiny with a lot of air between them and the guard lip.

Engine has done over 260000km (2.6lt pet) so this is giving me some leverage with the handbrake (but dear, little engines are only designed to do 150000km so we have been really lucky )

To be completely honest I would get a stronger base vehicle to start with. I looked in the owner's manual of a mate's courier a few years ago and it said something like "this vehicle is not designed for hard usage in 4wd conditions"... You will spend a lot of time and money getting the strength up to that of a stock Nissan, Toyota or Land Rover. However if you want to do it then good luck.

If you do go ahead, I would be inclined to scrap the dual case idea if you are only running 33's. The gearing will be fine with one T-case. Landrover LT230 T-cases are stronger and have lower low range gearing (3.32:1) than a hilux T-case.

ISUZUROVER wrote:If you do go ahead, I would be inclined to scrap the dual case idea if you are only running 33's. The gearing will be fine with one T-case. Landrover LT230 T-cases are stronger and have lower low range gearing (3.32:1) than a hilux T-case.

Good aftermarket gearing options for the hilux cases though

Nev62 wrote:yep, on the Raider. At present it has a 55mm body lift and a beefed up rear spring approx 50mm lift. Problem now is the rear tyres look tiny with a lot of air between them and the guard lip.

Engine has done over 260000km (2.6lt pet) so this is giving me some leverage with the handbrake (but dear, little engines are only designed to do 150000km so we have been really lucky )

If you are reasonably happy with the gearing (aside from diffs) I think the Mazda WL-T 2.5 turbodiesel should bolt up with little worries. The extra low down torque may be all you need.

Your biggest issue wil be the enormous wheelbase (I believe longer than a Hilux), which will take very large tyres to give you decent rampover. This will give you some lateral stability problems (off camber rolling, "falling over") if you don't widen the track considerably. A SAS would help this.

I would imagine that a SAS would be on the cards (Patrol or LC donors being the obvious choices) so accommodating spring buckets and steering/suspension links would have to be looked at Your chassis may be quite wide to accommodate the torsion bars, and therefore not wide enough to fit spring buckets between the chassis and wheels (with the SAS). Leaf springs would not be an option due to the short amount of chassis past the front wheels. The existing torsion bars aren't suitable for anything to do with a SAS (too little travel anyway).

I'm still going through the same deal myself planning for a SAS in 12-18 months. Far better to do all the measuring, comparing, and planning now, rather than take a grinder to it and find yourself in an unrecoverable position.

Time for the tape measure, pen, paper and a visit to your local used car yard (4X4).

1: RESEARCH
Look at what others have done,
how they did it,
where they got their inspiration from,
where they get the info from,
who supplied the bitz.

2: PREPARATION
plan out EXACTLY what it is you are going to achive,
draw up guidelines for those plans
allow for "bending" of the guidelines
collect as many of the bitz as possiable
test their capatability with each other before fitting, ( a "dry run" so to speak)
organise outside help with the skills that you may not have,
ask more questions,
understand fully the answers you get.

3: COMMITMENT
stick to the original plan but allow for setbacks,
"walk away" to reasure yourself of your plans as often as posiable,
document as much as posiable ( pics, measurements, thoughts)
dont leave it as an "unfinished project" for long periods
Belive in your self and the end result.

4:COMPLETION
Dont be frightened to look back and redo sections for a better result
Dont think thats its perfect untill it is
start planing the next task

5: TESTING
Big debuts attract big gatherings, test it quietly with minimal attendances
Big debuts are embarrasing when it breaks
be prepared for brakeages and when it doesnt .... try harder.!

6: SMILE
after all you did it whether anyone else does or doesn't like it wont really matter !

Kingy

Stop thinking and just build it. We built this in under 9 working days

RUFF wrote:Stop thinking and just build it. We built this in under 9 working days

Yes, but

(1) How many have you built before
(2) How many people worked on it

ISUZUROVER wrote:

RUFF wrote:Stop thinking and just build it. We built this in under 9 working days

Yes, but

(1) How many have you built before
(2) How many people worked on it

This style 0. Totaly different to the previous buggies.

Average of 2 people.

RUFF wrote:

ISUZUROVER wrote:

RUFF wrote:Stop thinking and just build it. We built this in under 9 working days

Yes, but

(1) How many have you built before
(2) How many people worked on it

This style 0. Totaly different to the previous buggies.

Average of 2 people.

Ruff the driveline and suspension would have been very similar wouldn't it? Thats 3/4 of the buggy that is the same as the others that were built

One thing to keep in mind if you are looking at building the raider/courier is the lack of aftermarket parts etc specifically for that model.

Garry with the KIA would be the best to tell you about that. He has a car that is about as modified as it can get with whats available ie nothing but wheels and tyres.

One of the other problems being that suspension systems are not available, this means that you have to design your own. Garry has had numerous kits in his KIA. I have seen the last version, it is very stiff and runs a single rate spring. Not ideal but if that's all you can get so be it.

If you decide to do the courier it will be an interesting build up, well worth following and a most unique vehicle. But consider the extra costs, headaches and time off the road as opposed to thinking of getting something like a cruiser, patrol etc. that parts are available off the shelf and the rig could be built in a week quite easily.

vitarajim wrote:One thing to keep in mind if you are looking at building the raider/courier is the lack of aftermarket parts etc specifically for that model.

Garry with the KIA would be the best to tell you about that. He has a car that is about as modified as it can get with whats available ie nothing but wheels and tyres.

One of the other problems being that suspension systems are not available, this means that you have to design your own. Garry has had numerous kits in his KIA. I have seen the last version, it is very stiff and runs a single rate spring. Not ideal but if that's all you can get so be it.

If you decide to do the courier it will be an interesting build up, well worth following and a most unique vehicle. But consider the extra costs, headaches and time off the road as opposed to thinking of getting something like a cruiser, patrol etc. that parts are available off the shelf and the rig could be built in a week quite easily.

I would add in Australia. There are 5.38 R&P for the Sportage available in Korea (vs 4.625-4.778 commonly fitted, depending on year) as are lockers (??what type), and lower tcase gearing is being organised in the US (a Tcase is off to the gear cutters as we speak for experimenting, should be ~2.7-3.0:1). This combination should give a low 1st of >54:1 (based on 2.7:1). The suspension kits in the Kia were specifically for development of a marketable 2.5" kit for the Sportage by the spring manufacturer concerned, so yes, there have been a few in and out. The springs that were fitted when I went out with VitaraJim were two generations ago, much softer now in the front (down from low 500 lb/in to mid 300 lb/in), with less metal (1.5" more wheel travel). But we digress....

I still believe the main stumbling block will be the front of the Raider chassis for suspension mounts. The existing design places all of the (suspension) torsion loads at a position under the drivers seat with the area surrounding that substantially beefed up. Relocating the suspension loads to be further forward will probably require some new or substantially upgraded crossmembers to be fitted further forward in the engine bay area and possibly plating the box section for more torsional rigidity, to accept the different location of the spring loads.

Exactly my point. Building a rig based on something "different" can be a cool and unique thing. However it depends on what sort of F*^king around you want to go through in the meantime, ie "prototype" suspension, gears etc.

For example, how long has it taken for your suspension manufacturer to get your kit to where it is Gary? and before you make any comment toward me bear in mind that i also had one of their kits in my Vitara (note: best thing i did was throw it away).

Many people do not have the time to mess around like that. All well and good if you do and as i said you can end up with a cool and unique rig at the end.

Other stumbling blocks on a project such as this for those who actually wheel their rigs rather than sit infront of their PC are things such as chassis strength, approach and departure angles etc etc.

One really has to look at what needs to be done to get the car to where they want it to before starting. Particularly when most parts are entirely custom and will require engineering.

Anyway, Nev what are you thinking of doing?

For example, how long has it taken for your suspension manufacturer to get your kit to where it is Gary? and before you make any comment toward me bear in mind that i also had one of their kits in my Vitara (note: best thing i did was throw it away).

8 months and 4 generations of coils. The Kia kit was manufactured to be a replacement for the Eibach 2.5" kit which has "patchy" availability. It was essentially done through a bit of reverse engineering. The only thing we initially had to go on was a wire size, measured vertically along the spring length which turned out to be larger than the wire size needed due to the wire adopting an oval shape when being wound, and the powder coating was also included in the initial wire size we were given. In spring manufacture a small difference in wire size can cause a significant difference in rate (16.2 mm = low 500's lb/in vs. 14.8 mm = mid 300's lb/in. A 10% increase in size corresponds to a 50-60% increase in rate) so the revisions were in trying to get the correct rate and number of turns.

i myself, have been wanting to get into the comp scene for a few years, and have started off just recently, when i decided this was what i wanted to do, i thought my first comp, hoping to be nissan trials this year will be standard class,

i chose to start off with an MQ patrol, cheap reliable, i do have a list as long as my arm, but some of these cant be done yet, due to keepin it standard for the trials, and my skill, which i will be doing a tafe course in welding, then it will progress.


you would have your ideas so would you, i recomend you start a list, of what you want, what it will require, costs involved, minus your own labour if you can do the stuff and so forth,

I like the idea of the raider, i had a brief idea a while back about a redeo, but figured it would be alot od design and development, which i dont have the skills or the time.

MY45 wrote:

RUFF wrote:

ISUZUROVER wrote:

RUFF wrote:Stop thinking and just build it. We built this in under 9 working days

Yes, but

(1) How many have you built before
(2) How many people worked on it

This style 0. Totaly different to the previous buggies.

Average of 2 people.

Ruff the driveline and suspension would have been very similar wouldn't it? Thats 3/4 of the buggy that is the same as the others that were built

Engine and Box were the same. This makes little difference anyway as its only fabricating 4 mounts no mater what motor and box you use. We had never used hilux diffs before and these made a huge difference because of how narrow they are compared to the rangie and cruiser diffs we used in the past. Suspension is set up totaly different in this one to both previous buggies. 1st one had radius arms in front and a rangie balljoint set up in the rear. And second one had double triangulated heim jointed links both ends. Only similarity to the previous suspension set ups is we used Rangie coils and some rangie bushes.

This is a totaly different frame in everyway from the previous ones. Also the motor is set up aprox 6" behind the front axle. Which caused trouble with tailshafts and pinion angles as well as engine clearance on the single top suspension link.

do what most people do, smoke heaps of weed and it will all come together.



NICK

i reckon you need to walk around a wrecking yard and see what they have most of. this will tell you what will and wont break.

eg. every wrecking yard will have shit loads of toyota/mazda alternators and crap all nissan ones. this tells you to buy a mazda/toyota.

have alook at axles, most will have crap loads of late pajeros as they are big axles and strong centers.


This system only works if the yard wrecks average amounts of all models and wants to get rid of the parts they have shit loads off.


NICK