Outer Limits 4x4 Board

G'day All

As diesel prices increase ($1.10 in the ACT) the idea of running bio-diesel in the old patrol is stirring.

Is anyone using it and how have they found it? Also where can you source it from?

Cheers

theres a squillion sites on it around the net, try www.google.com.au

www.biodiesel.org

its a $1.09 in townsville

Hoonz wrote:its a $1.09 in townsville

get used to it, it wont go down, no matter what happens to the price per barrel in ragtop land

Holden spent around $5b on developing ethanol fuel based engines, and a plant to manufacture them in, so they could export them to Sth America at a rate of 250 thousand a year.
Yet, Aus remains gripped firmly by the nads by the oil machine.

Yes I drive a diesel and find it sh!ts me cause when I bought it I paid around 38c per litre.

Now that I have vented that...

I got lost in the gas research website (sry can't remember address) reading their r&d.
for the price of around a premo turbo you can get conversion done to run at levels like dual fuel petrols.
Makes it cheaper and cleaner and that's good whether you are a tree hugger or not

Thanks Guys

Scotto that sounds like something worth checking out.

You don't need to make biodiesel. With a few modifications and a second fuel tank you can run a diesel on straight waste fat or oil. Strange Rover's business partner was doing it for years. Much less work than making biodiesel.

Interesting can you tell us more or maybe Sam can?

If you run your truck on homemade biodiesel or grease don't forget you still have to pay the government tax on every litre you use

iwannabeapirate wrote:If you run your truck on homemade biodiesel or grease don't forget you still have to pay the government tax on every litre you use

What the? Are you kidding?

On the bright side, how are they gonna know?

Damo wrote:

iwannabeapirate wrote:If you run your truck on homemade biodiesel or grease don't forget you still have to pay the government tax on every litre you use

What the? Are you kidding?

On the bright side, how are they gonna know?

Unfortunately not, it's crazy but true. Tax rate is the same as for petro-diesel (38.143 cents per litre).

Also, you need to have a license to make it.

Check this out:
http://www.ato.gov.au/businesses/conten ... /38323.htm

Can't have renewable fuel sources getting in the way of big business!

Cheers,
David

iwannabeapirate wrote:

Damo wrote:

iwannabeapirate wrote:If you run your truck on homemade biodiesel or grease don't forget you still have to pay the government tax on every litre you use

What the? Are you kidding?

On the bright side, how are they gonna know?

Unfortunately not, it's crazy but true. Tax rate is the same as for petro-diesel (38.143 cents per litre).

Also, you need to have a license to make it.

Check this out:
http://www.ato.gov.au/businesses/conten ... /38323.htm

Can't have renewable fuel sources getting in the way of big business!

Cheers,
David

Looks like that applies if you want to sell the stuff. Surely personal use would be overlooked.

Personal use... hmm, we'll have to get in cahoots with the pot heads. LEGALISE IT!!!

iwannabeapirate wrote:

Damo wrote:

iwannabeapirate wrote:If you run your truck on homemade biodiesel or grease don't forget you still have to pay the government tax on every litre you use

What the? Are you kidding?

On the bright side, how are they gonna know?

Unfortunately not, it's crazy but true. Tax rate is the same as for petro-diesel (38.143 cents per litre).

Also, you need to have a license to make it.

Check this out:
http://www.ato.gov.au/businesses/conten ... /38323.htm

Can't have renewable fuel sources getting in the way of big business!

Cheers,
David

Trust the current government to tax one of the only truly renewable fuels that exist. Unfortunately it seems to apply for personal manufacture/storage/use as well, but like someone said, it would be hard for them to find out - just don't put a "Bio Diesel" sticker on your 4x4.

However, there seems to be a loophole for running straight (unmodified) Waste Vegetable Oil (WVO), because of the statement (from the gove website):

Biodiesel is fuel for use in an internal combustion engine that is manufactured by chemically altering vegetable oils or animal fats (including recycled oils from these sources) to form mono-alkyl esters.

Note it specifies biodiesel as chemically altered fats/oils to form mono-alkyl esters. WVO is just filtered waste vegatable oil - it is easier to produce and just as good to run your truck on (once you have done a few mods).

Mczook wrote:Interesting can you tell us more or maybe Sam can?

It's pretty simple really. You need 2 tanks - a small diesel tank and a big one for filtered WVO (waste vegatable oil /fat). The fat tank needs a heat exchanger in it and heated lines (or run them close to something warm - like the hot water lines going to the tank).

You start on diesel, and once the engine has warmed up you switch over to fat. Likewise just before you shut down the truck you switch over to diesel to clean the lines out.

You of course need to have a source for waste oil/fat, and you need to filter it down to 10 microns or better before use. I think Chuck (Sam's business partner) used a bank of 3 truck oil filters.

Im pretty sure that you dont have to pay any gov taxes on bio diesel if its for personal use only if you intend to sell it to the public. I have looked into it you may find a drop in power on a non turbo motor but with a turbo you will not notice a big drop in power.

Perry.

RUFFLUX wrote:Im pretty sure that you dont have to pay any gov taxes on bio diesel if its for personal use only if you intend to sell it to the public.

There was a big discussion on another forum, and yea apparently you have to, BUT how the phuck they would know your using/making it would be the issue.

$1.12 here today for Shell diesel..
Biodiesel is lookin good, it would be just pouring that first lot into the tank that would be hard.

If anyone is interested in getting started there is some good info on this site:
http://www.journeytoforever.org/edu.html#biofuel

iwannabeapirate wrote:If anyone is interested in getting started there is some good info on this site:
http://www.journeytoforever.org/edu.html#biofuel

or www.biodiesel.org

I've been looking at this option for quite a while now and realistically its not all that hard to convert a diesel to vegitable oil.
LPG lockout valves, some fuel line replumbing, an additional fuel tank with heating ( from the heater hoses !!! ) and a couple of good quality fuel filters is all that basically required.

The various mixes that you can achive are realitavely easy and inexpensive to buy, and most of the filtration can be done by multiple fuel filters in the fuel line, I especially like the type fitted to Japaneese trucks ( ISUZU, Mitsibishi, Hino etc ) which do water seperation as well as filtration and are easilly cleaned with out filter replacement being nessecary.

Interesting reading here ........

http://www.journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html

http://www.journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_mike.html

http://www.journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svo.html

http://www.journeytoforever.org/biodies ... ml#systems

http://archive.nnytech.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/22528/

http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/

Interestingly enough I went and saw the local
fish n chip shops,
milkbars,
and other fast food outlets, about their waste oil......

99% is "sold" it back to a recycler for almost next to nothing !, as to what he does with it I'm unsure because he did the "shut d phug up thing" as soon as I mentioned I was interested in trialing some as a biofuel ???

One milkbar I went to uses 40 lits of vegitable oil a DAY !!! and nearly all of the waste oil was stored in the back yard in 20lit drums..... ( I wonder where the health inspector is looking ??? ) so I have a ready made sorce for the stuff.... just need the time to do the setup .....

Kingy

V8Patrol wrote:I've been looking at this option for quite a while now and realistically its not all that hard to convert a diesel to vegitable oil.
LPG lockout valves, some fuel line replumbing, an additional fuel tank with heating ( from the heater hoses !!! ) and a couple of good quality fuel filters is all that basically required.

A good resource for SVO (straight vegie oil) is http://www.greasel.com which has details on filtering as well as providing a shop where you can buy filters and the like.

V8Patrol wrote:99% is "sold" it back to a recycler for almost next to nothing !, as to what he does with it I'm unsure because he did the "shut d phug up thing" as soon as I mentioned I was interested in trialing some as a biofuel ???

He probably turns it into soap. With an attitude like that you should just "cut his lunch" at the source and pay the shop owners %10 more then he does.

Cheers,
David

iwannabeapirate wrote:He probably turns it into soap. With an attitude like that you should just "cut his lunch" at the source and pay the shop owners %10 more then he does.

Cheers,
David

I found out his "price" this arvo ..........

$1.00 for a 20 lit drum

I can beat that !

Kingy

One other thing I forgot. It was found by an extensive reasearch project at an Australian university (conducted for the defence forces) on running diesels on coconut oil and other oils, that direct injection diesels from carbon trumpets around the injector nozzles, while indirect injection diesels do not. So if you have a direct injection diesel running WVO, use injector cleaner regularly.

Have a look at this site

www.tasmanenergy.com.au

This bloke has a very detailed book for about $25.00 goes into how to build all the gear to start your first batch.
Start next week building my plant for Bio-diesel.

Dave

I too tried to get started with biodiesel a couple of years ago but got sick of being abused or hung up on by fish&chip shop employees - I wonder what their problem is?
I wonder whether a 'cooperative' would work? I don't have room at home to set up a home plant but as a shift worker I would sometimes have time to 'run around' and do some of the production work. Other members of the 'cooperative' may have access to used oil - which I don't have but I could collect it. The whole concept depends on sharing responsibilities,costs,skills and benefits. I live in Melbourne in the Eastern part but I travel to the Western suburbs from time to time. Is anybody interested in discussing the concept further?
My home email is: rtye@bigpond.net.au

wow

gonna have to start doing some reading on this

is it really a renewable energy though?

how much is vegetable oil to buy in bulk, like 100litre drums (new)

dearer than 50c/litre?

When I did my checking a couople of years ago I priced new vegetable oil and it (in bulk) was about the same price or more than diesel. It certainly was not a price that was worth pursuing. I have been told that vegetable oil prices are protected that is maintained at an artificially high level.
Surprised? The Government on the one hand say that they are supporting renewable or alternative fuels and on the other hand introduce taxes and protection that makes biodiesel uncompetative! I am still waiting for an answer from my Federal MP on this very point - he has promised to get some information for me.

Sorry - I forgot to answer your question - biodiesel is considered renewable because provided there is somewhere to grow them vegetable oil producing plants can be grown over and over again whereas petroleum will run out one day (or be in reduced supply - as is now the case - with an artificial price). Methanol is also a vegetable by-product ( I think sugar cane waste can be used to produce it).
The two key issues are that it is renewable and that it is kinder on the environment.

V8Patrol wrote:

iwannabeapirate wrote:He probably turns it into soap. With an attitude like that you should just "cut his lunch" at the source and pay the shop owners %10 more then he does.

Cheers,
David

I found out his "price" this arvo ..........

$1.00 for a 20 lit drum

I can beat that !

Kingy

That'll learn 'im!

Richard James wrote:The two key issues are that it is renewable and that it is kinder on the environment.

Some people also claim that it has 0% effective carbon dioxide emissions as the emissions it release were absorbed by the plants from the atomosphere.

what about buying diesel in bulk? Set-up a tank & pump at home with like a 5000 lt tank is that an option? could be cheaper