Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Has anyone experimented with setting up a water injection kit using a 12v pressure pump, some sort of controller etc?

And does anyone know of a cheapish (under $100) 12v pressure pump that can do around 40PSI?

generally you want to keep water out

Is it for a radiator / intercooler sprayer???
Why go to this effort if overheating woes? fix the problem

water injection is sprayed directly into the intake, to mix with the fuel, and cool down your intake charge. it is mainly used for supercharged or turboed applications.

BTW, use 50%methanol, either fuel grade, or industrial grade, and water, not water on its own. methanol has better cooling properties, and will work better in a mix. methanol is cheap, up to $1 a litre.

try a drip feed system, like a lead additive kit, the intake under load will draw the mix thru, when you need it, and wont when it isnt under load.
we tried this on my brothers blown commodore, had the jet before the turbine, to help with atomisation. we played with it for a bit, but used straight water, and we couldnt get enough in, using a football inflating spike, to help. we ended up with a water to air intercooler instead, now no probs!

@ Big Red Toy!

Crushu is on the right track. It helps prevent detonation meaning you can run more advance and get more power. Another benefit is it cleans out the combustion chambers of carbon build up which will also help prevent detonation.

Commercial kits are available for big $$$, but I'd like to have a go at building my own. Drip type methods can be used that rely on the intake air to suck the water into the combustion chamber, but I'd like to try one with a decent pressure pump and misting nozzle.

Here's some info on what even a simple "drip" type kit can do (in this case it was installed on an older carby Peugeot)
http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12175

And here's a top shelf commercial system: http://www.aquamist.co.uk/

I always understood that water injection also helped because when the fuel ignites in the cylinder, the heat evaporates the water so you get more pressure and therefore more power.

But I just heard that, I don't know if it's true in practice.

Jason

There has been a fair bit of talk around this subject on the aussie frogs
website (Aussie french car owners). They run a phpbbs like this one

www.aussiefrogs.com and do a search on water injection


Tom

RaginRover wrote:There has been a fair bit of talk around this subject on the aussie frogs
website (Aussie french car owners). They run a phpbbs like this one

www.aussiefrogs.com and do a search on water injection


Tom

Or save some time searching and click the link I posted above.

sureflow waterpump designed for boat water systems has a 40psi pressure switch works a treat even on n/a engines it still amazing i got heaps more power out of my old 250 that used to ping on any fuel due to high compression and no more pinging with water injection

o theres a few sureflow pumps on ebay for around 70bux at the moment
ive also heard vr/vs commodore windscreen washer pumps are good for 40psi

Thanks for the info pcman.

I think I found those pumps you're talking about on Ebay the other day (Shurflow?) starting price was around $55 for the cheapest- didn't see how long the autcion went for though. I remember postage and packaging was around $10 extra... I posted a whole exhaust system interstate for only $15....

I know Autospeed sell a kit using the Commode water pumps but I can't seem them lasting very long- think they wanted around $75 or something stupid for them too!!

no probs glad to help out
heres a link to ebay auction currently $72 2 days to go

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll ... 23824&rd=1


you could get a efi petrol pump from a wreckers for cheap they would have plenty of pressure

pcman wrote:you could get a efi petrol pump from a wreckers for cheap they would have plenty of pressure

I was thinking they wouldn't like running water too much though (corrosion problems)??

water injection can be detrimental, and should be used as a last resort, for power gain. water takes up valuable space in the chamber, in place of fuel and air. you end up effectivly reducing the cubic capacity, but increasing the efficiency. if you can do other thing to reduce the intake temp, it is preferable.

murcod wrote:

RaginRover wrote:There has been a fair bit of talk around this subject on the aussie frogs
website (Aussie french car owners). They run a phpbbs like this one

www.aussiefrogs.com and do a search on water injection


Tom

Or save some time searching and click the link I posted above.

What a dick I didn't even see that, sorry mate

Tom

It still sounds stupid

Big Red Toy wrote::?
It still sounds stupid

Did you read the link to the Froggy Forums???

Still can't see a reason for it? eg. cheap power increase?

yep, still stupid. maybe if it was a steam engine it might work

Big Red Toy wrote::?
It still sounds stupid

I agree, fix the problems you have properly, if you can, rather than a "band aid" fix, like water injection

Water injection isn't a "bandaid" to fix problems..... if you're viewing it as such then perhaps you haven't researched it properly?

Remember it's only a fine mist that is used too- not a raging torrent of water into the combustion chamber. It's been around for many years and is not a dodgy fix for other problems.

I am going to give it a try- nothing ventured , nothing gained.

Autospeed years ago had articles on computer controlled waterinjection using the setup you described, the system worked well but the end result was it didn't really increase power but was useful to stop pinging in something that otherwise could not be stopped IE jap cars designed for 100 octane fuel

Yes, that's why I've been investigating it- Feroza's have a problem with detonation.

It will also allow you to run more timing advance before detonation, and thus gain more power. Or you can run a lower octane fuel and not suffer detonation.

but you are reducing your intake charge, which is reducing your cubic capacity. you have gone from having a 2l or what ever inefficient motor, with hot spots in the head, or too much advance, or too hot incoming air or whatever, to a 1.6l inefficient motor with a cold intake charge, masking your underlying problems. get cold air induction, wrap your exhaust, remove sharp edges in your combustion chamber, and fix your timing, and use real fuel, not cheap shit, and you will have a 2l motor that is efficient.

CRUSHU wrote:but you are reducing your intake charge, which is reducing your cubic capacity. you have gone from having a 2l or what ever inefficient motor, with hot spots in the head, or too much advance, or too hot incoming air or whatever, to a 1.6l inefficient motor with a cold intake charge, masking your underlying problems. get cold air induction, wrap your exhaust, remove sharp edges in your combustion chamber, and fix your timing, and use real fuel, not cheap shit, and you will have a 2l motor that is efficient.

I run only 98 octane fuel, run only factory spec timing, am not going to use header wrap as it kills extractors and voids the warranty, am not going to rip the head off just to have a look, have tried different air filter set ups with no change..... Is there anything I missed?

If there is carbon build up in the combustion chamber (your "hot spots") water injection should help clean them out. By the way a friend bought a brand new Feroza back in '96 and I remember he had detonation problems with it.

The guy who ran a very basic water injection set up in Froggy forums gained more power and used less fuel- so there goes the inefficiency point. Don't condemn something you've never tried!!

let us know how you go anyway david.
this could be interesting

water isnt as flammable as nitrous

383FJ45 wrote:water isnt as flammable as nitrous

Apparently Nitrous actually isn't flammable by itself!

http://members.aol.com/agspeed/nos.htm#11

But it would be interesting to experiment with....

[quote="murcod"]

Apparently Nitrous actually isn't flammable by itself!

quote]

nitrous is only concentrated oxygen, basicly. it helps you burn more fuel for a given space. that is why it is called chemical supercharging.

water injection ( i would still use 50/50 methanol, for better cooling) will probably help, but the fact still remains, as you poined out, that the engine, even new, is a poor design. if it pings with premium fuel, there is a problem with its design.

so its not a steam engine

You could very easily use a MegaSquirt ECU to run water injection instead of petrol, you can build an ECU for under $200 and it's fully tunable from a laptop.

i used a valve lube system (cant remember what type it was) on my old mini...used to run methanol only...it worked a treat and cost me about $30.

murcod wrote:Feroza's have a problem with detonation.

murcod wrote:I run only 98 octane fuel, run only factory spec timing, am not going to use header wrap as it kills extractors and voids the warranty

I only ever used the cheapest unleaded fuel i could find for my Feroza, never once put PULP in it, and i also never once had a detonation problem.