Outer Limits 4x4 Board

arrghh - trying to find my first 4x4, its almost imposible to choose. ANy suggestions for me?

I have a 15k budget. Am really keen on it being a manual, and would love as many extras as possible eg sunroof anfd leather and power windows etc. Reasonable kms, nothing with 200 etc MUST be able to fit the kids in it in child seats. Not intereste din 2L diesles without turbos etc, been driving BV8s for 15 years, need some power on the road.

I am beginner 4x4er and looking to do some camping and climb the odd hill or drive through the odd puddle with the kids. Drive to work the rest of the time. Prefer white, but not totally essential.

I Started off looking at Surfs/4runners, but hard to find without LOADS of kms, or auto.

Started looking at Hilux dual cabs, but again very high kms in my money.

Landrovers appear to have a load of features and fairly late model in my money - which worries me...are these any good? At what kms do they become unreliable and should stay clear? I dont want to spend 15k and then find i am up for engine rebuilds etc.

Cruisers are too expensive, i would have to get a really old one.

Pajeros appears to be owned by the wives in every other house where we live.

Any other suggestions on what to look at? I really need a car now.

Id be looking at GQ patrols or Range Rovers. Autos are good for 4wding. Steer clear of rangies with Viscous couplings as they sieze at around 160,000 kms and are big money to replace. Im not sure what year they came out. but they are on the later classic models.

You will have trouble finding a manual range rover. A turbo diesal gq will probably be easyer to find in manual and I think you can get the higher spec (sunroof etc) in them. Also the benefits of factory difflocks for off road work and generally a much more reliable car.

For that sort of money, a Discovery or Range Rover would be ideal.
Its possible to get manual Range Rovers up to about 93 i think, but after that its auto or nothing. As muppetman said, the viscous coupling in the transfer case is prone to fail. Discovery's have the same running gear as the Rangie but do not have the problematic transfer case. If anything does go wrong with them, then they are easy to work on to.

Landrover Discoveries are pretty cool, HEAPS of interior space for the kids and lots of mod cons, and probably a good buy at your budget.

But for total bang-for-bucks you must consider a GQ Patrol; at your budget a turbo diesel should be available and you'll find it's unbreakable and very well suited to the use you've described.

With the discovery, there ARE decrepit examples out there as well as good ones so you need to be extra careful... talk to the rover guys about what to watch for.

Jason

Awesome i am glad i posted this now.

Patrol bothers me a little bit cos i know 2 people who have had MASSIVE problems with thiers that seem to cost 6 or 8k each...

But i guess if i get it checked out then i should be ok?

I will pursue the Land Rover idea then, and have a squiz at the patrol - what is the max KMS for each of these cars, before engine rebuilds and other nasty/expesnive repairs are required? keep under 150kms and should be ok for 2 years?

Begbie wrote:Awesome i am glad i posted this now.

Patrol bothers me a little bit cos i know 2 people who have had MASSIVE problems with thiers that seem to cost 6 or 8k each...

I'm guessing they had the smaller motors, the 2.8 or 3.0... if you stick to the 4.2 litre petrol or turbo diesel you wouldn't expect there to be much in the way of hidden problems.

Jason

At that price range hard to beat a XJ Jeep cherokee

Look for a limited as that will give you leather and all the creature comfort

The back is a little small but if the kids are young there is more than enough room, juts becomes a problem for lanky teenages

The engine is a soild torquey straight 6 that is good for very high klms, I have seen some running well after 300,000Klms

Price range depending on year and condition will run from 9K to about 25k

Also in the higher end of that price range is the ZJ Grand Cherokee, same engine but gives a bit more room and even more creature comfort

Off road performace is good and will some small mods will stick it up almost any other major 4x4 wagon on the market for that price range.

On road performace is good, not a sports car but has more than enough grunt and will tow well

Go the GQ............cheap, capable standard, many on market already have some level of extra's, cheap to mod (4" spring lift<$1000), spares availability is second to none.

Go the early GQ/Mav' 4.2's...either petrol or diesel, whatever is your preference.


CAN NOT BE BEATEN IN THIS PRICE RANGE!!!!!

[/quote]Patrol bothers me a little bit cos i know 2 people who have had MASSIVE problems with thiers that seem to cost 6 or 8k each...
[quote]

The smaller 2.8 and 3.0 litre patrols have car gearboxes in them and there motors are a little weak.

The bigger 4.2 litre patrol's, Petrol or Diesel have the best running gear on the market.

They are also the best bang for your bucks.

i third the patrol/ maveric idea (posted once but appears not to have gone through).

land rovers hmm.. hear good and bad... even die hard rover guys i know say they have their "quirks"... moreso than most patrol or cruiser owner i know.

mate of mine bought a land rover discovery new in 2001, had 15 grand worth of warranty work done to it (and met and befrended owners having similar problems at the dealership). a new engine, + engine rebuild and a couple of gearbox rebuilds were the main problems, he was really happy to trade it straight up a little over a year after he bought it for a 91 model cruiser. he drove it 10k's to work every day, and took family holidays from vic to SA or NSW's every couple of months, towing a small trailer sailer... he didn't punish it at all...

For touring duties (ie, camping, the odd medium difficulty 4wding) I don't think you can go past a 2.8TDi Pajero. Very comfortable, economical, reasonable access to aftermarket mods/accessories and tough running gear. Diesel are not as common but keep and eye out and you'll get a gem. Also, keep an eye out for the "Triple Diamond" pack, this includes ABS, adjustable shocks, factory difflock and I think the factory sunroof. You may have to stretch the budget a little but you won't be disappointed.

If you a going to head towards more difficult offroading, GQ Patrol it is, but these will have a lot of klms @ your price.

I had a Paj and now a Patrol, only reason I got rid of the Paj is I wanted a deisel (and didn't by it in the Paj ) and am planning to push the offroad envelope more than the Paj would take me. Otherwise, it was a TOP vehicle, great allrounder.

BTW, from my experiences steer clear of the Discos. Very expensive to service/repair if you are not mechanically minded and there is a saying going around with rover owners, "if it ain't leaking oil, it means there is none in it!" which doesn't really inspire confidence now does it.

The petrols REALLY drink and the diesels are very expensive to repair (ie TD5 injectors ... $2000 ... EACH! )

Just my 2c worth, feel sure I'll get flamed for it too!

Im with RoldIT, steer clear of disco's,I service 4bys and a disco is a major at every service,plus stupid problems all the time between services.
There is a reason Pajero's are common ,they are popular and good value for the buck,they are also less of a truck to drive then the Patrols.
If you are going to be more serious off road you will struggle to beat a Patrol.
J Top

AussieCJ7 wrote:At that price range hard to beat a XJ Jeep cherokee

Look for a limited as that will give you leather and all the creature comfort

The back is a little small but if the kids are young there is more than enough room, juts becomes a problem for lanky teenages

The engine is a soild torquey straight 6 that is good for very high klms, I have seen some running well after 300,000Klms

Price range depending on year and condition will run from 9K to about 25k

Also in the higher end of that price range is the ZJ Grand Cherokee, same engine but gives a bit more room and even more creature comfort

Off road performace is good and will some small mods will stick it up almost any other major 4x4 wagon on the market for that price range.

On road performace is good, not a sports car but has more than enough grunt and will tow well

I think they all ignored you!

I think they are a good wagon, maybe a little small as you have stated though. Can be modified well if you chose to do so (only have to look at jimmyb)

Just my "pocket change" worth!

you wanna get something like this:


http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modules/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=27616

my 2cents. only buy a v8 discovery if you love fuel bills. a mate had a 94 update one for a month and got rid of it as the fuel use was ridiculous no matter how much of an old lady he drove like.

recently got meself a GQ wagon 4.2 diesel and love it. for the dollars you can't really go wrong as they are fairly bulletproof. this is my second GQ the first was a petrol TI with 380k on it and still going fine with no excess oil consumption when i sold it. happy hunting and drive everything you can so you can pick the good from the dungas.

I'm with Kris on this one...........................
For light to medium offroading and touring a 2.8TDI Paj is perfect.
Good reliable torquey motor with a very beefy drivetrain and in GLS trim very well fitted out and extemely comfortable. Plus will run absolute rings around any live axle rig on the road. Unfortunately a 2.8TDI will be a bit out of your range.
Aftermarket support is not bad now after many of us have lobbied hard.
A 3.0 V6 lwb GLS will be in your price range but can be thirsty if pushed and loaded up but a solid reliable truck.
For more harder offroad stuff I'd be looking at a GQ there's nothing more to be said about this vehicle Nissan got it pretty much spot on and made it better for the GU.
Also an 80 Series GXL could fit the bill and can't be discounted and is smoother than the Patrol but not as strong or reliable for hard offroad stuff.
I'd stay away from any Rover in that price range / age but thats my personal opinion.

WOW! thanks for all the advice - i need some time to digest it.

Only reason i hadnt kept looking at Pajero was because i notice all the mothers driving thier kids around in them around here, i kinda figured it was aRAV4 type car.

They come with loads of options and low KMs in price range, but no turbo diesels sadly :(

I think i am convinced to stay clear of Land Rovers then...at least without warranty.

Honestly i dont think i will climbing any cliffs, or going over any jumps - just through some puddles and stuff really...so i dont wanna buy a full truck for the odd bit of dirt driving, eg hi lux or old patrol.

Me thinks 4runner/surf or pajero ?

In that case a Paj wins hands down especially with a family and if you need the load carrying space.
For $15K you will be able to pick up a NH-NJ (91-95) lwb GLS in reasonable nick no worries.
As Kris said keep your eye out for the Tri-Pack option which included ABS, adjustable shocks and rear diff lock (air operated).
If you want Paj specific imfo just ask.
Good luck.

Bitsamissin wrote:In that case a Paj wins hands down especially with a family and if you need the load carrying space.
For $15K you will be able to pick up a NH-NJ (91-95) lwb GLS in reasonable nick no worries.
As Kris said keep your eye out for the Tri-Pack option which included ABS, adjustable shocks and rear diff lock (air operated).
If you want Paj specific imfo just ask.

Mmm I'd probably have to agree with that.

Jason

Bitsamissin wrote:In that case a Paj wins hands down especially with a family and if you need the load carrying space.
For $15K you will be able to pick up a NH-NJ (91-95) lwb GLS in reasonable nick no worries.
As Kris said keep your eye out for the Tri-Pack option which included ABS, adjustable shocks and rear diff lock (air operated).
If you want Paj specific imfo just ask.
Good luck.

YEah i do - what its a lot of KMs for one of these? I want 2 years out of it, and minimal risk or engine rebuilds etc -assuming regular safe type driving.

Also whats are the things that always go wrong with these cars, whats to look out for when searching for them? I really have to get a car this week - arghhh

Not that much really.
I'd go the 4sp auto as these are quite reliable if looked after.
The 5sp can have some bearing noise in nuetral which is just a noisy input bearing and can run like this for ages.
Crankshaft pulley bolts can break and there is an upgraded bolt available I think there was a factory recall on these.
They can blow a bit of smoke which is usually the valve guide seals if the motor has been looked after they get good miles. A mate has a 3.0 with 450K's on it and has owned it from new. Typically a looked after 3.0 will get over 300K's.
Timing belt needs replacement every 100K's but the motor is a non interference design eg- if the belt breaks no damage will occur.
The super select 4x4 system is brilliant but can suffer from the dashboard flashing light syndrome which is usually the front axle disconnect not engaging properly.
Not much else really and it really depends how well it's been maintained like everything.
I think if you look around you should be able to find one with around 180-200K's thats been looked after.

thanks again - am looking at them now, can get some good value for my money i think. eg http://www.carsales.com.au/pls/carsales/!cs_content.private_vehicle?vehicle_id=1957122&current_rec=16&total_rec=27&sort_type=3&price_min=10000&price_max=20000&make_id=3&model_id=34&state_id=7&search_distance=25

Any ideas where to find out what all the option codes are? eg gls glx nj nh etc ?

EDIT: to beastmaster below - i am totally sold on a pajero, unless a super awesome 4runner/surf comes up tomorrow i will buy a pajero thurs/fri this week - hopefully the 99 model listed above....

Generally the Toyotas are overpriced due to perceptions of toyota reliability and resale. Everyone else here but the toyota guys will agree....

I bought a GQ because I thought for the money I wanted to spend it was the best thing for what I wanted to do.

The Pajero is a lot better than people will have you believe, and a good price. Pretty good power too from the V6... not flash from the 4 cyl.

Even a V6 Vitara is gonna have a lot of power.... power is relative to weight and big 4by's (eg Patrol and Cruiser) sap a lot of go... my vitara on 20% taller gearing - 31"s would still kill my 4.2 Maverick in a straight line on 31"s.....


Remember that stuff you can get a replacement engine at an importer can save big bucks rather than a rebuild... Paj, Vitara, Surf etc have this advantage.

Cool - thanks for all the tips - have found a 1999 Pajero Escape NL, manual 3.5L with 150kms for 15k - has all the electrical options but no sunroof or leather :(

I have seen the pics, and am taking the arvo off to go and buy it...

woohoo!

Frank has pretty much covered everything I would have said.

As a footnote, the only reason you get all the "soccer mums" driving these things is that they as so comfortable. My friends were always so surprised at how "car-like" mine handled.

The 3.5l has good power and torque but the trade off is you may find them a little thirsty, not too bad but will cut down you touring range a bit. My 3.5l used to run about 15l-17l per 100klms (but I had a pretty heavy foot ) both around town and highway, climbing a bit offroad but too be honest, I always thought that was pretty good for a 2tonne+ truck. Certainly not as bad as the ole' Rover V8s ...

Gee thats a real bargain.
Thats a lot of truck for $15K if it is fairdinkum.
I'd be seriously checking it out but look carefully for any signs of cancer if it has been down by the beach for a while.

RoldIT wrote:Frank has pretty much covered everything I would have said.

As a footnote, the only reason you get all the "soccer mums" driving these things is that they as so comfortable. My friends were always so surprised at how "car-like" mine handled.

The 3.5l has good power and torque but the trade off is you may find them a little thirsty, not too bad but will cut down you touring range a bit. My 3.5l used to run about 15l-17l per 100klms (but I had a pretty heavy foot ) both around town and highway, climbing a bit offroad but too be honest, I always thought that was pretty good for a 2tonne+ truck. Certainly not as bad as the ole' Rover V8s ...

ummmm dunno about you blokes but if I was going to get 17L/100K
I would much rather my V8 - cause that is what I get outta her.

21L/100K peak hour traffic too and from work every day of the week.
18L/100K regualar around town driving.
16L/100K highway


24L/100K on Gas city driving
18L/100K Gas on highway

The fuel consumption debate is all bullsh*t all petrol 4x4s over 2 tonne which you are looking at are going to use fuel at the rate of 18ishL/100K

As it is pretty obvious I will recommend a rover but it looks like people are talking you out of that - all I will say is this, the engine, gbox, tcase
are tough and reliable, my rangie (my '76 when I had it and now my '91) has never stranded me or broken down to a point where I have not been able to get her going again. Don't buy one if you are not mechanical, even the late 1990's series II rangies are highly reliable and easy to service.

If you are annoyed by having to fix things like, cleaning electric window switches, fixing/replacing interior lights and adjusting door handles then don't buy one - you will just come on here and whine.

Having said that - $9K will buy you a extremely nice 1989 rangie vogue
(with LT230 Tcase not BW VC) - look hard you can find one with leather
and sun roof. Put MTRs on it, get some rock sliders and Haultech's traction control, basic suspension mods and you will have an extremely
capable 4x4 - put it on gas and it will be cheaper/as cheap to drive around than the partol.


As far as the partol goes - if you buy a diesel keep in mind ones that
have done a lot of city kms have about a 350,000K life, after that
they will crack pistons and fall to bits. Ones that have done country
Kms have more of a shelf life but they are all limited.

No small 4x4 diesel engine is 'bullet proof' you will have to pay in the end,
and if you are there to foot the bill, you will lose all the money you have saved in fuel 'economy' over a petrol model.

Don't believe me - call an engine diesel exchange/rebuilding place and have a chat - see what they say.

Just be careful buying second hand high km 4x4s they could cost you big $$ no matter which way you go, drive a heap and get to know what a good one feels like - get them pre-purchase inspected, get one with log books and service history. Don't spend all of you $$ up front, save some for when it poos its pants and needs help early on, at this stage you will still be playing a lot to have things fixed before you work out who and where to go.

Good luck

Tom

RaginRover wrote:

RoldIT wrote:Frank has pretty much covered everything I would have said.

As a footnote, the only reason you get all the "soccer mums" driving these things is that they as so comfortable. My friends were always so surprised at how "car-like" mine handled.

The 3.5l has good power and torque but the trade off is you may find them a little thirsty, not too bad but will cut down you touring range a bit. My 3.5l used to run about 15l-17l per 100klms (but I had a pretty heavy foot ) both around town and highway, climbing a bit offroad but too be honest, I always thought that was pretty good for a 2tonne+ truck. Certainly not as bad as the ole' Rover V8s ...

ummmm dunno about you blokes but if I was going to get 17L/100K
I would much rather my V8 - cause that is what I get outta her.

21L/100K peak hour traffic too and from work every day of the week.
18L/100K regualar around town driving.
16L/100K highway


24L/100K on Gas city driving
18L/100K Gas on highway

The fuel consumption debate is all bullsh*t all petrol 4x4s over 2 tonne which you are looking at are going to use fuel at the rate of 18ishL/100K

17l per 100lkms was my maximum around town, it only dropped slightly to about 15l per 100lkms on the highway due to 100klm/ph still being about 2850rpms. My Paj had the DOHC V6 3.5l motor with 151kw of power (to my knowledge about 220bhp) which was plenty and I could be wrong but is more than the majority of the Rover V8s without the 21L/100K fuel consumption figures. My 92l fuel tank regularly got me at least 600klms out of a tank on a long trip and range was the important thing to me. Unloaded, my Paj weighted in at a shade under 2100klgs. All long trips were fully loaded.

This vehicle was basically factory spec and I am yet to see a factory spec disco/rangey of similar year (1995) come close to those stats.

Not trying to start a shit fight, just quantifying my statement.

Let us know how you went. For what you want the Pajero is a good choice.