Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Well starting to think of ways to make my new thing work , It boogy,s on the road , need to make it slippery underneath ,

Has any body done or seen disc conversion on an LT230 ,?

standard drum hangs a little low - I have a smaller diameter drum from an LT95 , But i figure this is going a little backwards if i swap it ,

Thoughts ?

Larry.

Wont a disc be the same size or larger ?

Frofrom another site;

Disk Brake Hand Brake See All Photos


You know the way the transmission brake gets full of mud, you have to remove the prop shaft to get into it to wash it out - so in practice, the only time you bother is for the MOT. The shoes wear out double quick and you spend your life adjusting it!

Well, that's what I think!
I decided, after considering some much more complicated solutions involving clutches, computers & stuff, that a disk brake was the way to go.

I originally considered cutting the rim off the existing drum - since it already has all the holes in the middle to bolt in place. I was reluctant to cut up the drum in case it didn't work and I'd have to buy another one. Then found a steel disk at the junk yard small enough to go in my lathe - so I made my own disk.

I went for a wander round the local scrap yard at Adversane looking for a car with rear disk brakes incorporating a cable operated hand brake. There were many options as it turned out. The one I chose was from a Volvo 740 GLE. It is a single pot design with an auto-adjust mechanism which works hydraulically.

When you push the brake pedal normally (on the Volvo), the brake pad moves along a hydraulic ratchet. I found that the same happens when you pull the hand brake cable, but only if there is brake fluid in the piston. It turned out that it didn't need any pressure, just a feed of fluid under gravity. I believe this is not the case for all such calipers, but all you would need is a spare clutch master cylinder that you push occasionally to adjust the handbrake.

In order to mount the caliper on the vehicle, I used the original back plate, cut it down a bit (to make it look a bit more deliberate and welded a bit of angle to it to which the caliper simply bolted. It was pretty easy. I reckon anyone with a welder and an angle grinder could do as good a job!
Click Here to see the photos in high resolution

http://photos.gfrs.co.uk/sproklegrommet ... RHandBrake

Great idea, must look into it - I hate the way the drums fill up with mud and stop working just when you need them...

and here's some more info:
http://www.lrenthusiastforum.com/ubbthr ... &fpart=all

From what I have read, it is very hard to set up a disc handbrake compared to a drum. A few people who have tried it said they had to try a few callipers until they could get one strong enough to hold a vehicle on steep hills. The design of drums means the drum tightens the brake shoe against itself as it tries to turn - discs do not do this.

Thanks for the response guys , and the links ,
Just need to clean up the the lumps under this chassis rail for one, and
I also have Problem mounting the standard handbrake lever , I need to change to a cable operation ,

Larry.

ISUZUROVER wrote:From what I have read, it is very hard to set up a disc handbrake compared to a drum. A few people who have tried it said they had to try a few callipers until they could get one strong enough to hold a vehicle on steep hills. The design of drums means the drum tightens the brake shoe against itself as it tries to turn - discs do not do this.

Yes, I tried to use this logic on the LRE thread....... But let's not use science to design a critical safety feature of teh vehicle......

If you do it, you really need it to pass a couple of tests.

1) Should not be able to over power it with the engine is 1st low. This will ensure it is strong enough to hold the vehicle...

2) Should be able to stop the vehicle from highway speeds. Remember it is an emergency brake.

I would disagree with the second point, even the standard rover hand brake should never be used to stop a vehicle from highway speed, it is a parking brake NOT an emergency brake. Pulling it on at speed breaks lots of stuff, not recommended!

No, BS, it is an emergency brake and must be so by law. It may overheat and may not stop quickly, but it will stop you in the event your main brakes fail.

These pissy little disc brakes that they have been discussing would go up in flames before you where half way to a stop.

I would disagree with the second point, even the standard rover hand brake should never be used to stop a vehicle from highway speed, it is a parking brake NOT an emergency brake. Pulling it on at speed breaks lots of stuff, not recommended!

Glad you didn't tell my 'parking' brake on my old series IIA about 6 years ago when at 2 in the morning, 110 km/hr down hill, winding road, behind a semi, I touched the brakes and foot went to the floor, otherwise it might not have pulled me up safely (eventaully).

Needless to say I got out. Shook abit. Then drove back to Melb. (windy roads, Hume freeway & Sydney Rd) about 200 Km all on the 'parking' brake. Yes not recommended, but nothing broke.

Even if it did break stuff, I would prefer that than a pissy disc that couldn't prevent a broken neck.

Saying that, there should be no reason why a well engineered disc set up could not be satisfactory. Just a drum lends itself to a simpler solution.

My 2 cents.

red90 wrote:

ISUZUROVER wrote:From what I have read, it is very hard to set up a disc handbrake compared to a drum. A few people who have tried it said they had to try a few callipers until they could get one strong enough to hold a vehicle on steep hills. The design of drums means the drum tightens the brake shoe against itself as it tries to turn - discs do not do this.

Yes, I tried to use this logic on the LRE thread....... But let's not use science to design a critical safety feature of teh vehicle......

If you do it, you really need it to pass a couple of tests.

1) Should not be able to over power it with the engine is 1st low. This will ensure it is strong enough to hold the vehicle...

2) Should be able to stop the vehicle from highway speeds. Remember it


is an emergency brake.

On all the Rangies we have had in the family( about 7) not one of them has had a handbrake that could stop the car from being driven off in high range.

Sorry, "with the center diff locked". If the center diff is open, then the front wheels get drive.

Loanrangie wrote:
On all the Rangies we have had in the family( about 7) not one of them has had a handbrake that could stop the car from being driven off in high range.

Every landie I have owned (that drove - 2x IIA, 1x110V8 1x110Isuzu) has not been able to drive even in 1st low with the handbrake on (when properly adjusted and oil free).

Totally agree with the safety issues red , isuzu .

I wanted to see some others that have been done .
So it was good to see the link , I wouldn,t use a drum backing plate as the caliper mount .a new mount will have to be fabed to suit the caliper , what ever the case it needs to be cable operated ,

Larry

There is a new prototype over at LRE.

http://www.lrenthusiastforum.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB1&Number=295054&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=7&fpart=all

Classic, people want to buy it before he has even seen if it will work....

Disc seems to be nearly as big as the drum and would be prone to getting bent off road.

red90 wrote:There is a new prototype over at LRE.

http://www.lrenthusiastforum.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB1&Number=295054&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=7&fpart=all

Classic, people want to buy it before he has even seen if it will work....

Disc seems to be nearly as big as the drum and would be prone to getting bent off road.

Thanks Red90,

Thats what i like is to see others , somtimes there great .
I relise this one is a prototype , But I wouldn,t fit it .
The backing that plate its to thin ,setup with those spacers its going to twist first time its applieid with only a few mph momentum.
The 90degree tab for the cable isn.t secured to keep it inline, if it was mounted 180 degrees then it wouldn't want to shift under pressure ,as it
is it can turn sidways slightly and allow enough movement for the cable to get 5-10 mm of slack,

Whats your thought on it ?

I was thinking around 10mm + plate heated and using a press to get the shape for the mount ,

Larry

I agree with what you said.

Plus it needs a larger pad if you plan on it stopping the vehicle.

A bit late, I know... but a chap in England has started selling Disk Handbrakes
for land rovers. His name is Simon and his website is X-eng.co.uk - more models than just defenders currently under design, i.e. Disco.
The product is called X-brake, and has already been fitted to over 250 vehicles. Mine included, works great. Easy DIY fitment.
For example today, I was winching telepgraph poles with my 300tdi auto 90 (Modified), in neutral using just the disk handbrake to hold the vehicle. And must say it held 100%.

Good stuff Peter , That looks to a pretty hefty caliper there ,
actually all looks to be strong enough to do the job ,

it also seems to be inline rather then dropping down after the transfer case Cool .

Ilike the Xtool as well long bar with strong mangnet for broken axle extration.

www.X-eng.co.uk


Have to check the exchange rates $ .

Kit (disc-caliper-mounting plate ect) $406-
Post -econ air - 2-3 weeks $112-

probly no import tax (the kit isn't avialable here)

Larry.

Looks like a good kit. Maybe we could have a group buy?

Certainly worth giving Si an email, he is a very helpful chap indeed.
If anyone knows of Scorpion Racing, they have (as of last friday), started to sell these on their website too.

Am sure he will sort something out for you all.

just to add to this.

i can believe some people are saying these PISS WEAK disc brakes.


i have on on my sierra (yeah i know but its not little and its not light anymore) that i made from a go kart caliper and disc.


it will lock the rear wheels (35 ckaws at the time and welded centre) at 100ks.

it has held the zook on hills i never thought it would.
and being a go kart caliper and disc it is very small.

the whole lot cost me aroung $120 from memory and about 5 hours time.

I've heard a lot of good reports about the X-Eng handrake. He has a lot of happy customers.

I'm very intersted in these myself.

The Caliper Simon uses is designed to stop a huge earth mover
so stopping a 2.5T land rover won't cause it to many problems.

I've sent him the link to this thread and he'll be able to answer your ?? when he appears.

PS the X shaft works a treat and saves lots of time when you do snap a Halfshaft.

Thought I could feel my ears burning!

The disk brake listed at the top at www.sproklegrommet.co.uk was my original prototype. I use this site as a sort of blog for silly ideas & stuff I've built.

It worked very well, but only for a year or so. The adjuster mechanism corroded to nothing and the whole thing seized up!

I spent a year or so buying a total of 5 different calipers from lots of different manufacturers and settled on the one which gave the best performance (although it was also the most expensive!).

A couple of the calipers just snapped when I pulled the lever hard enough to stop me moving (low range, foot to the floor with a 4sp Auto).

The one we use will hold with no problems - and should have capacity for a lot more! All in, it is pretty impressive (even if I say so myself!).

Although it is not reccommended as an emergancy brake (and UK construction & use does not require this), I had an incident where I had damaged a brake line (didn't realise it) and was descending a hill (on tarmac). There was a truck reversing out of a gate at the bottom, I jumped on the pedal and it went straight to the floor.

The Auto doesn't give much engine braking - but I still stuck it in first to help a bit and gently applied the handbrake.

Although there was a lot of clunking & banging with the take-up in the diffs & gearbox, it stopped me with a few yards to spare!

So I have personal experience that it works!

I was more worried about ripping the back of the transfer case off if I pulled it hard than it not stopping.

Although a well adjusted drum brake will do every bit as well - chances are it will be full of mud and wont!

Including Shipping, the brake is not very cost-effective in the US, but we have an agreement with Scorpion Racing, who has distributors in the US to ship them in bulk. They will be able to retail them for a lot less than the cost of buying one from us and paying the shipping individually. We hope this will provide the best value solution worldwide.

We have a series version in development at the moment which has slightly simpler construction and should be a bit cheaper. That (if the testing goes well) should be available in March.

The current version will fit all 90, 110's & Defenders (except those with overdrives & crawler boxes) easily plus 2 & 4 door Range Rovers with a bit of 'adjustment' of the floor pan.

We have a new version (rotated 90 degrees) which will fit Discovery's, Range Rovers as well as vehicles with under and over-drive boxes. This will be launched soon after Christmas.

Hope that answers some questions. If you have any more - feel free to drop me a line.

Si

An excellent bit of kit and well worth buying - possibly the mutts nuts

X-eng also do a nice line in clothing, along with some other useful bits and pieces

Lao Tsu wrote:An excellent bit of kit and well worth buying - possibly the mutts nuts

X-eng also do a nice line in clothing, along with some other useful bits and pieces

Nice line in clothing?

I did discover that the original owner of xeng.co.uk was a Japanese porn site - maybe that's what you were thinking of?

Si

X-Eng wrote:

Lao Tsu wrote:An excellent bit of kit and well worth buying - possibly the mutts nuts

X-eng also do a nice line in clothing, along with some other useful bits and pieces

Nice line in clothing?

I did discover that the original owner of xeng.co.uk was a Japanese porn site - maybe that's what you were thinking of?

Si

I was thinking of those nice polo shirts you do...

Ah, I understand!

We had a dozen or so produced for specific people - but If you like, I could get one for you if you mail me your size & stuff. They were about £10.

Si

X-Eng wrote:Ah, I understand!

We had a dozen or so produced for specific people - but If you like, I could get one for you if you mail me your size & stuff. They were about £10.

Si

I already have one!